All you need is make a really good video of all the Autopilot failure modes. Post it on youtube, make it go viral and being featured in all major news media. Tesla will contact you immediately in no time.
David29
Supporting Member
One thing this post calls to my mind is that I do not have a good understanding of the roles of the camera, radar, and ultrasonic detectors in the autopilot/TACC/emergency braking systems. Seems as if the radar sees far enough ahead to have detected the truck, but apparently ignored it (for reasons I do not fully understand). The camera would have seen it, but perhaps does not feed those systems in a useful way in this case? And the sonar devices would neither be likely to see the truck because of its height nor see it in time.
So can anyone speak authoritatively on the respective roles of camera and radar here?
I think this accident reinforces my own observations (also made by many others in this forum) that vehicles changing lanes in front of you present a challenge for the system, as do high trailers.
Very sad accident, and also inevitable there would be a "first" like this, as others have said.
So can anyone speak authoritatively on the respective roles of camera and radar here?
I think this accident reinforces my own observations (also made by many others in this forum) that vehicles changing lanes in front of you present a challenge for the system, as do high trailers.
Very sad accident, and also inevitable there would be a "first" like this, as others have said.
It's easy to think it'd be hard not to see a semi turn in front of you, but in the wrong conditions like this... obviously it can happen. All it takes is taking your eyes off the road for a moment and missing the cab. Whether on standard cruise control, TACC, or just out on a somewhat deserted stretch of straight highway not expecting it.
Just this year I lost a colleague to an accident similar to this. A semi truck made an illegal u-turn at the base of a hill, my colleague was driving down the freeway late after work, it was dark. Two cars hit the semi broadsided, his went first and he was killed at the scene. He was driving a normal ICE, no word on if he was using cruise control or if his car had TACC.
I could imagine that driving into a bright lit sky, especially if the sun is in front of you a bit... it could be hard to see the white side of a semi if you missed the cab turning. It might not have mattered if he was on AP or manual driving, all it might've taken was a moment to look down at the radio to see the name of the band that was playing... just a momentary distraction, something I've certainly done on manual driving, and when you look back up, the lighting conditions just caused too much of a delay for reaction.
Just this year I lost a colleague to an accident similar to this. A semi truck made an illegal u-turn at the base of a hill, my colleague was driving down the freeway late after work, it was dark. Two cars hit the semi broadsided, his went first and he was killed at the scene. He was driving a normal ICE, no word on if he was using cruise control or if his car had TACC.
I could imagine that driving into a bright lit sky, especially if the sun is in front of you a bit... it could be hard to see the white side of a semi if you missed the cab turning. It might not have mattered if he was on AP or manual driving, all it might've taken was a moment to look down at the radio to see the name of the band that was playing... just a momentary distraction, something I've certainly done on manual driving, and when you look back up, the lighting conditions just caused too much of a delay for reaction.
I've said this from the very beginning that launching Autopilot as a "beta" software was a bad move. In fact, you can now hear Tesla's disclaimer being emphasized loud and clear in their blog post, which in my opinion is a cowardly move. I have bad news for Tesla - hiding behind a beta software disclaimer is not going to go far with NHTSA. I am saddened by what happened, but it was inevitable. The way Tesla released and implemented Autopilot was a mistake, in my humble opinion, and the NHTSA might force Tesla to pull the software which would be devastating for Tesla and Elon Musk's way of doing things.
I'm not quite sure why a bright sky excuses Tesla's software. The Tesla's emergency braking should have kicked in, but it did not. Emergency braking should depend on the forward radar, not the camera, to engage braking when it detects an object in the car's path. The driver should not have needed to see the semi, that's why emergency braking exists!
The notion that Tesla is not responsible because, hey, if the driver can't see something then we shouldn't expect Autopilot to see it is pure nonsense. That's why we have emergency systems in cars, to save us when we aren't looking, paying attention, or can't see something. That's why we invest in cars which have these systems. The systems are designed to protect us from things we aren't even aware of. To suggest that the software gets a pass because not even the human driver saw it coming is laughable.
I see stormy weather ahead for Tesla and TSLA.
I'm not quite sure why a bright sky excuses Tesla's software. The Tesla's emergency braking should have kicked in, but it did not. Emergency braking should depend on the forward radar, not the camera, to engage braking when it detects an object in the car's path. The driver should not have needed to see the semi, that's why emergency braking exists!
The notion that Tesla is not responsible because, hey, if the driver can't see something then we shouldn't expect Autopilot to see it is pure nonsense. That's why we have emergency systems in cars, to save us when we aren't looking, paying attention, or can't see something. That's why we invest in cars which have these systems. The systems are designed to protect us from things we aren't even aware of. To suggest that the software gets a pass because not even the human driver saw it coming is laughable.
I see stormy weather ahead for Tesla and TSLA.
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ecarfan
Well-Known Member
Oh my friend, with LIDAR you do still have to worry about color (900nm light reflectivity) as well as angled panels that do not retroreflect LIDAR pulses easily... LIDAR has its pros and cons and I think in an ideal world we would need a combination of LIDAR, radar, ultrasound, and cameras.It's a very sad state of technology to blame the problem on the color of the truck.
At least, with LIDAR, you don't have to worry about any color at all.
However, I agree that it is not a fair comparison to compare very expensive Google's LIDAR with Tesla $2,500 Autopilot.
It seems that there's a better technology but owners don't demand for it because of either the lack of knowledge or the lack of the will to pay more.
This is a very tragic accident. The "hubris" of naming this system AutoPilot will prove to be a mistake. For any company, pioneering autonomous driving, is likely to be very risky and expensive. Where was their legal dept. on this? Even GM is taking their time releasing "SuperCruise". and certainly not doing any beta testing.
hockeythug
Active Member
To my knowledge summon just uses the ultrasonic sensors. This specific issue seems to deal with the Mobileye camera which led to the radar being told to ignore the truck.
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Tam
Well-Known Member
It is an expectation from many owners that this kind of situation should be easily handled by the system but owners may not appreciate what they signed up for: Many limitations with Tesla Autopilot system and that is just one of many.
ZachShahan
Active Member
Sorry, I came to the Autonomous Vehicles section and didn't see anything here. Seems like an autonomous vehicles topic, no?
ecarfan
Well-Known Member
SomeJoe7777
Marginally-Known Member
As I understand it, the accident proceeded as follows:
- Tesla was east-bound on US 27.
- Tractor-trailer was west-bound on US 27, turning south onto NE 140th Ct.
- Tractor-trailer was white.
I don't know the time of day of this accident, but if it was around 6:00 - 7:00 PM, the sun would be low in the western sky, causing the following:
- This would position the sun exactly above the oncoming lanes, shining directly into the tractor-trailer driver's eyes from his point of view..
- The sun's reflection off the side of the tractor trailer would reflect directly into the autopilot camera and the Tesla driver's eyes.
The combination means that the tractor-trailer driver couldn't see the oncoming Tesla, and neither the Telsa driver nor AP could see the obstacle. Further, because of the trailer's height above the roadway, the radar couldn't see an obstacle to slow down TACC, sound forward collision warning, or activate AEB.
This appears to me a highly improbable set of precisely unfortunate conditions to cause this accident.
- Tesla was east-bound on US 27.
- Tractor-trailer was west-bound on US 27, turning south onto NE 140th Ct.
- Tractor-trailer was white.
I don't know the time of day of this accident, but if it was around 6:00 - 7:00 PM, the sun would be low in the western sky, causing the following:
- This would position the sun exactly above the oncoming lanes, shining directly into the tractor-trailer driver's eyes from his point of view..
- The sun's reflection off the side of the tractor trailer would reflect directly into the autopilot camera and the Tesla driver's eyes.
The combination means that the tractor-trailer driver couldn't see the oncoming Tesla, and neither the Telsa driver nor AP could see the obstacle. Further, because of the trailer's height above the roadway, the radar couldn't see an obstacle to slow down TACC, sound forward collision warning, or activate AEB.
This appears to me a highly improbable set of precisely unfortunate conditions to cause this accident.
Tam
Well-Known Member
Great point!
A system should have other sensors to compensate for each other shortfalls.
Jeff N
Active Member
- Oct 31, 2011
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Yes, and this would appear to be the Google StreetView that the Tesla driver would have seen. The truck would have been turning from the opposite direction at the intersection towards the gas station at 3:40pm, according to the police report. The truck driver's view is similarly open and clear of apparent obstacles unless conditions were obscured due to rain or fog etc.
Of course, StreetView images are taken from a somewhat higher vantage point than the position of a Model S driver.
Below is the Tesla driver's approximate view from the outside line:
The Truck driver's approximate view but from the outside lane instead of the left turn lane:
The view looking towards the oncoming Model S from where the truck would have been as it was turning left and driving perpendicular across US 27A (aka FL-500) onto 140th Court NE (toward the left side of the image):
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What you described above sounds like a design flaw, which points back to Tesla. A forward collision system should not depend on the ride height of the vehicle in front. It should be designed in such a way as to detect all vehicles and objects of a certain size, period.
ZachShahan
Active Member
From my article:
Update: The fatal accident occurred in Florida. It took the life of an Ohio man, who had actually previously been greatly helped by Autopilot in what was nearly an accident. He had published dozens of videos of Autopilot in action, and just seemed like one of those genuinely nice people who make your day a bit brighter. Our condolences to the family and friends.
This is why most highways have offramps or stoplights for perpendicular traffic. Driver should have been more cautious using driver assistance technology on a sketchy stretch of highway.
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I saw his tweet, but not totally convinced. You have to think of this as two cars moving perpendicularly and dynamically into an intersection, not stationary. In other words, the front of the truck/trailer would have been well into Tesla's path BEFORE the high-riding section of the trailer. Tesla's long range radar should have detected the front part of the truck/trailer as it start moving into Tesla's path, and started the emergency braking.
Elon's argument would only work literally 0.1 or 0.2 second before impact, when the high-riding section of the truck is just a few feet in front of Model S. But his argument wouldn't work anytime before the last 0.2 second, the radar should have detected the tires of the truck/trailer. Again, the front of the truck is well into the intersection at least many seconds before the impact, think of the crash dynamically, not stationary.
beeeerock
Active Member
I'm sure we'll eventually hear more details as to whether brakes really were applied or not (info to date suggests 'no'). The fact that charges are pending points to the error being the truck driver's. Which isn't a big surprise - the highway traffic clearly has the right of way.
At 3:40 PM the sun would presumably have been fairly high in the sky and about 45 degrees off the back right side of his car.
I find it hard to believe that the camera didn't detect the trailer and even more trouble believing the radar didn't see a huge bounce off the side of the trailer. Also that Mr. Brown didn't see it either. I wouldn't doubt that he was traveling quickly and the truck driver misjudged his approach speed. Not enough time for man or machine to detect and avoid. Perhaps the truck was towing a soft-sided trailer - what does the radar return look like from that sort of material? A big blank bright area in the camera image and perhaps a questionable radar return. The machine may not have been able to combine the two and make a decision... apparently neither did the driver (important point!) Was this a perfect storm, in the world of AP?
Tragic... more so by the fact that we've all seen the near miss video... it feels like we knew him and that makes it worse. Sincere condolences to his family.
At 3:40 PM the sun would presumably have been fairly high in the sky and about 45 degrees off the back right side of his car.
I find it hard to believe that the camera didn't detect the trailer and even more trouble believing the radar didn't see a huge bounce off the side of the trailer. Also that Mr. Brown didn't see it either. I wouldn't doubt that he was traveling quickly and the truck driver misjudged his approach speed. Not enough time for man or machine to detect and avoid. Perhaps the truck was towing a soft-sided trailer - what does the radar return look like from that sort of material? A big blank bright area in the camera image and perhaps a questionable radar return. The machine may not have been able to combine the two and make a decision... apparently neither did the driver (important point!) Was this a perfect storm, in the world of AP?
Tragic... more so by the fact that we've all seen the near miss video... it feels like we knew him and that makes it worse. Sincere condolences to his family.
Accident occurred at 3:40PM, so the sun would have been somewhat high in the sky, but pointed toward the truck driver.
I can't believe the number of perpendicular crossing roads across highways in Florida. So dangerous. I remember another autopilot video (from someone else) showing a driver making a U-turn directly in front of them, on a highway. The autopilot successfully stopped to avoid the accident.
I can't believe the number of perpendicular crossing roads across highways in Florida. So dangerous. I remember another autopilot video (from someone else) showing a driver making a U-turn directly in front of them, on a highway. The autopilot successfully stopped to avoid the accident.
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