Feelings about the “order fee” and dropping features

[tangible1]

That’s your point of view. I think I am pointing out a legitimate flaw in the way Tesla is dealing with the product after ordering and after selling. If you buy a sofa from a furniture store, will you let them come in later and remove a layer of foam because they think you don’t really need that?

when you purchase a Tesla you buy into their program. As is true for any major purchase. Yours is a very minority opinion.
By any measure, Tesla has been proactive, developed significant infrastructure, identified necessary resources, and moved the needle of the industry.
Nothing is ever perfect and there's always someone not satisfied.
I guess we've identified one of those....

Tesla isn't perfect and I'm not a fanboi, but I am reasonably knowledgeable.
Find a better EV solution right now. Good Luck with that.
Oh, you haven't sold your Tesla yet ?

 

[Bp25]

when you purchase a Tesla you buy into their program. As is true for any major purchase. Yours is a very minority opinion.
By any measure, Tesla has been proactive, developed significant infrastructure, identified necessary resources, and moved the needle of the industry.
Nothing is ever perfect and there's always someone not satisfied.
I guess we've identified one of those....

Tesla isn't perfect and I'm not a fanboi, but I am reasonably knowledgeable.
Find a better EV solution right now. Good Luck with that.
Oh, you haven't sold your Tesla yet ?

Please show me exactly where in the purchase agreement it says that I am not buying a car but instead I am buying into a program.
I bought a car and Tesla is a car manufacturer, not a religion that can demand absolute loyalty and faith. If they want to take away some sensors after the fact, I will not have to agree with it, and I shouldn’t have to sell it. Is it really that hard to comprehend? Anyway, I don’t want to argue with you any further. Enjoy your car.

 

[ucmndd]

Please show me exactly where in the purchase agreement it says that I am not buying a car but instead I am buying into a program.

It’s right after the paragraph where it said you bought a car with ultrasonic parking sensors as a listed feature.

 

[tangible1]

Please show me exactly where in the purchase agreement it says that I am not buying a car but instead I am buying into a program.
I bought a car and Tesla is a car manufacturer, not a religion that can demand absolute loyalty and faith. If they want to take away some sensors after the fact, I will not have to agree with it, and I shouldn’t have to sell it. Is it really that hard to comprehend? Anyway, I don’t want to argue with you any further. Enjoy your car.

So i guess you expect absolutes.
Not happening !!!

 

[sleepydoc]

The owners manual has a bunch of "if equipped" statements so not sure how that matters.

I'm pretty sure the 'if equipped' on the ultrasonic sensors is new.

when you purchase a Tesla you buy into their program. As is true for any major purchase.

'buy into their program?' give me a break. Go ask 100 Tesla owners if they bought a car or a program.

Please show me exactly where in the purchase agreement it says that I am not buying a car but instead I am buying into a program.

I went back and looked at my purchase agreement and it's remarkably sparse. The first page has the configuration (basically the options you pick when you order; color, wheels, etc)

Copied from my agreement:

Agreement to Purchase. You agree to purchase the vehicle (the “Vehicle”) described in your Vehicle Configuraton from Tesla, Inc. or its affiliate (“we,” “us” or “our”), pursuant to the terms and conditons of this Agreement. Your Vehicle is priced and configured based on features and options available at the time of order and you can confirm availability with a Tesla representative. Options, features or hardware released after you place your order may not be included in or available for your Vehicle. If you are purchasing a used Vehicle, it may exhibit signs of normal wear and tear in line with its respective age and mileage.

...

Order Process; Cancellation; Changes. After you submit your completed order, we will begin the process of preparing and coordinating your Vehicle delivery. At this point, you agree that the Order Fee has been earned. If you cancel your order or breach this Agreement and we cancel your order, you agree that we may retain as liquidated damages the Order Fee, to the extent not otherwise prohibited by law. You acknowledge that the Order Fee is a fair and reasonable estimate of the actual damages we have incurred or may incur in transporting, remarketing, and reselling the Vehicle, costs which are otherwise impracticable or extremely difficult to determine. If you make changes to your order, you may be subject to potential price increases for any pricing adjustments made since your original Order Date. Any changes made by you to your Vehicle Configuration, including changes to the delivery location or estimated delivery date, will be reflected in a subsequent Vehicle Configuration that will form part of this Agreement. The Order Fee and this Agreement are not made or entered into in anticipation of or pending any conditional sale contract.

This is from 2020 so I have no idea if and how it has changed, but reading this the only guarantee they made is that I would get a Blue Long Range AWD Model Y with 19" Gemini wheels, white interior, autopilot and FSD capability.

Something else I've noticed is that Tesla is remarkably sparse when it comes to hardware details on its cars. Every other manufacturer has a long list of 'features,' even including mundane features like the maker emblem on the front grill whereas Tesla doesn't even list the size of the battery.

Legally, I think Tesla is likely covered when it comes to abiding by the agreement so if someone wants to get their deposit back they are probably out of luck. I also think Tesla should notify buyers of significant changes that may affect their decision and give them the option to cancel.

 

[Calliope]

What about if you test drive a MX outfitted with option package A, you agree to purchase a MX outfitted with option package A, but the car you get has different options in package A than were there when you test drove one?

That's not what happened to me, but reading this thread made me think about it.......

 

[DanDi58]

I know people complain about removed features, and when I ordered (January 2021), there were several features added to my car between order and delivery in March 2021 - the new center console being the big one - for which I paid nothing additional. But I guess people don't consider the SW updates as 'improvements'? For example, just in the latest (2022.36) release, they added a remote door unlatch feature, significant improvements to the Energy app, the ability to change the Cabin Overheat Protection temperature threshold, improved battery preconditioning performance, additional information about Superchargers on the screen and several updates to the phone app. I get that people don't like removed items (although TBH the removal of radar and USS probably should have been foreseen since Elon has long talked about vision-only as the goal) but don't forget the incremental - and significant - improvements that are added free of charge for years later.

 

[tangible1]

I know people complain about removed features, and when I ordered (January 2021), there were several features added to my car between order and delivery in March 2021 - the new center console being the big one - for which I paid nothing additional. But I guess people don't consider the SW updates as 'improvements'? For example, just in the latest (2022.36) release, they added a remote door unlatch feature, significant improvements to the Energy app, the ability to change the Cabin Overheat Protection temperature threshold, improved battery preconditioning performance, additional information about Superchargers on the screen and several updates to the phone app. I get that people don't like removed items (although TBH the removal of radar and USS probably should have been foreseen since Elon has long talked about vision-only as the goal) but don't forget the incremental - and significant - improvements that are added free of charge for years later.

there's only one side to the coin of complaint.
no one catalogs the improvements, as they are taken for granted.

 

[sleepydoc]

there's only one side to the coin of complaint.
no one catalogs the improvements, as they are taken for granted.

More often than not Tesla adds equipment, but the importance and relative value of what they add or remove is dependent on the individual.

You also forget - if you have an agreement, there is no penalty for giving more as long as you still give what you promised.

Say you need a snowplow and I agree to sell you an ATV with a snow plow attachment, then when you come to pick it up it doesn’t have the snow plow but it has a wagon that actually costs more than the snow plow. You have no right to complain because I added in the wagon even though it doesn’t have the plow, right? (This isn’t a perfect analogy, but it illustrates the princlple)

 

[Polymer]

You also forget - if you have an agreement, there is no penalty for giving more as long as you still give what you promised.

Say you need a snowplow and I agree to sell you an ATV with a snow plow attachment, then when you come to pick it up it doesn’t have the snow plow but it has a wagon that actually costs more than the snow plow. You have no right to complain because I added in the wagon even though it doesn’t have the plow, right? (This isn’t a perfect analogy, but it illustrates the princlple)

Yeah and in other countries they don't let you get away with removing something either. Not without you agreeing to it. So you are entitled to a refund of your deposit. I don't see why Tesla would care about keeping the 250....It is a nothing.

That said...you are generally paying for a feature...an outcome...not a specific piece of hardware.

If say, your snow plow was updated with a sonic plow that did exactly what you wanted, you'd probably be fine with it....

I have my doubts with the camera only..but ultimately if it works fine, I wouldn't care...

I do think there is a fair few too many "Tesla can do no wrong" type of thing..as if the poor quality control is acceptable or isn't a big deal....that if you can't live with that it isn't the right car....No, it is a big deal and even Tesla is trying to fix it....

That said, the car is well designed and the constant improvements to the software are a big plus. I think as long as you didn't get stuck with some car with weird issues, you'll be happy with the overall result. But of course, that's coming from non-FSD customer....from what I see/hear/have experienced myself, I'd be pretty annoyed..but I know that, and that's why I'm not paying for it, at least not yet.

 

[Bp25]

You also forget - if you have an agreement, there is no penalty for giving more as long as you still give what you promised.

Say you need a snowplow and I agree to sell you an ATV with a snow plow attachment, then when you come to pick it up it doesn’t have the snow plow but it has a wagon that actually costs more than the snow plow. You have no right to complain because I added in the wagon even though it doesn’t have the plow, right? (This isn’t a perfect analogy, but it illustrates the princlple)

Exactly. Some people seem to think that legality of an agreement does not apply to Tesla. I have accepted the delivery because I was happy with the product as is. I was not depending on the product getting better in future, also the reason I did not get FSD. If it gets better, fine. I may even pay for AB someday because that’s an improvement worth paying for. But if they try to remove USS and force me to accept that during a software update, I will be pissed because I have a tight garage space and I heavily rely on the sensors.

 

[DanDi58]

Exactly. Some people seem to think that legality of an agreement does not apply to Tesla. I have accepted the delivery because I was happy with the product as is. I was not depending on the product getting better in future, also the reason I did not get FSD. If it gets better, fine. I may even pay for AB someday because that’s an improvement worth paying for. But if they try to remove USS and force me to accept that during a software update, I will be pissed because I have a tight garage space and I heavily rely on the sensors.

I suspect those of us that have the USS will not have them 'deleted' until Tesla Vision can replace the inputs. Cars without USS that are being delivered now are 'temporarily' losing the Park Assist feature, I assume until they have sufficient data in the 'occupancy network' to allow for it again. I don't think we'll lose them until then. My garage is tight as well but I use the rear camera to determine how far in I need to go to clear the door.

 

[jboy210]

What about if you test drive a MX outfitted with option package A, you agree to purchase a MX outfitted with option package A, but the car you get has different options in package A than were there when you test drove one?

That's not what happened to me, but reading this thread made me think about it.......

That happened to me on my 2018 X. The interior color, MCU, wheels, seat colors, and trim fabrics all were discontinued and replaced with others during the 6 months between order and delivery. Tesla development schedules are more akin to software release than traditional car makers model years. Tesla will puts things in production as soon as they are ready, and makes change to keep vehicles flowing. They do not park vehicles waiting for a component like Ford and other brands have. If they can make a software change or delivery minus the feature deemed not critical they will ship. If that is going to bother people, Tesla may not be the brand for them.

 

[WhatsABattery]

I would agree with the bait and switch sentiment if Tesla wasn't simultaneously incrementally adding features to cars as well.

I suspect any lawyer who looks into it will want to see where the features removed were contractually promised in the first place.

Seems a bit odd to talk about features being removed while ignoring things being added. Even if the new features aren't something you asked for or wanted, consider it from a legal argument perspective ... it will matter. It will show that the company isn't engaging in some grand bait and switch scheme when they are adding upgrades and new features without raising the price on people that have already ordered.

 

[Polymer]

I would agree with the bait and switch sentiment if Tesla wasn't simultaneously incrementally adding features to cars as well.

I suspect any lawyer who looks into it will want to see where the features removed were contractually promised in the first place.

Seems a bit odd to talk about features being removed while ignoring things being added. Even if the new features aren't something you asked for or wanted, consider it from a legal argument perspective ... it will matter. It will show that the company isn't engaging in some grand bait and switch scheme when they are adding upgrades and new features without raising the price on people that have already ordered.

You don't have a legal argument to say but we added feature X when the customer ordered Y.

Plus if what I was reading was true..they've temporarily disabled things like some parking assist modes..which means there is an admission it isn't equivalent YET.
This is different if you're replacing feature like for like but doing it in a different way....but even temporarily disabling something shows they don't fully trust it yet either which means it isn't like for like..yet...

But this comes back to the deposit...if the customer doesn't want it after the changes..give them back their money and let them go get another car somewhere else....For those that are given that option but are still unhappy, that's kind of too bad.

 

[tangible1]

You also forget - if you have an agreement, there is no penalty for giving more as long as you still give what you promised.

Say you need a snowplow and I agree to sell you an ATV with a snow plow attachment, then when you come to pick it up it doesn’t have the snow plow but it has a wagon that actually costs more than the snow plow. You have no right to complain because I added in the wagon even though it doesn’t have the plow, right? (This isn’t a perfect analogy, but it illustrates the princlple)

like for like is a better analogy. this one doesn't really work.
one design of snow plow for another design of snow plow, maybe?

 

[WhatsABattery]

You don't have a legal argument to say but we added feature X when the customer ordered Y.

Plus if what I was reading was true..they've temporarily disabled things like some parking assist modes..which means there is an admission it isn't equivalent YET.
This is different if you're replacing feature like for like but doing it in a different way....but even temporarily disabling something shows they don't fully trust it yet either which means it isn't like for like..yet...

But this comes back to the deposit...if the customer doesn't want it after the changes..give them back their money and let them go get another car somewhere else....For those that are given that option but are still unhappy, that's kind of too bad.

As previously mentioned, what the customer orders doesn't list the things being removed. So the customer would in fact be receiving what they ordered. Feel free to pay to get lawyers involved though.

 

[sleepydoc]

like for like is a better analogy. this one doesn't really work.
one design of snow plow for another design of snow plow, maybe?

Maybe more like - "well it doesn't have a plow but it has a big fan that will blow the snow out of the way that we think will be just as good."
Remember this is in the context of phantom braking becoming a huge issue after they decided to remove radar from their cars so the presumption of equivalent function is not at all assured.

 

[Polymer]

As previously mentioned, what the customer orders doesn't list the things being removed. So the customer would in fact be receiving what they ordered. Feel free to pay to get lawyers involved though.

As previously stated in this thread...the order itself just refers to an existing set of documentation which lists it..you can make an argument it does in fact infer this is included. This is an argument already successfully made in other countries as well. But as I said before, if you're replacing the feature 1:1 then this is a moot point....the question is whether you are actually receiving a feature 1:1. Given they've disabled some functions that would've used the USS but they haven't perfected with vision, I think you could argue they have NOT.

YOUR argument, which was they added X, Y, Z but removed A is a nonsensical one..and would be completely irrelevant. Here I gave you a cup holder, an extra USB port and some fuzzy dice but I removed the sensors...it doesn't work like that....

I don't need to get my lawyer involved...I don't have an issue. I also am not drinking the Kool Aid so hard I don't think Tesla is infallible..because they're not. I really like my Tesla..that doesn't mean I'm blind to their shortfalls nor do I just accept them as ok..

 

[tangible1]

Maybe more like - "well it doesn't have a plow but it has a big fan that will blow the snow out of the way that we think will be just as good."
Remember this is in the context of phantom braking becoming a huge issue after they decided to remove radar from their cars so the presumption of equivalent function is not at all assured.

we're blowing this all out of proportion.
you either accept change with some back and forth, or you don't.
as I outlined in an earlier post, the play with Tesla going in, is some arbitrage of functions. it's how they roll.
you may of may not like it, but it's what it is with Tesla.
as always, people find their way to online forums to air their .... concerns.