FSD & HW3 Clarification

[Ryshaw]

I think that it’s a positive sign that EM is once again confirming that AP 2.0 and AP 2.5 owners who pre-purchased FSD will receive the AP HW3 CPU (Now the FSD CPU) upgrade at no charge. I am curious, however, as to whether or not us AP 2.0 owners will also require a Hardware upgrade of some sort, as in this article he also alludes to the fact there is no difference in AP 2.5 and AP 3 HW, but clearly leaves out AP 2.0. Curious as to others thoughts...

https://electrek.co/2019/03/29/tesla-full-self-driving-computer-retrofit-elon-musk/

 

[scottf200]

I think that it’s a positive sign that EM is once again confirming that AP 2.0 and AP 2.5 owners who pre-purchased FSD will receive the AP HW3 CPU (Now the FSD CPU) upgrade at no charge. I am curious, however, as to whether or not us AP 2.0 owners will also require a Hardware upgrade of some sort, as in this article he also alludes to the fact there is no difference in AP 2.5 and AP 3 HW, but clearly leaves out AP 2.0. Curious as to others thoughts...

https://electrek.co/2019/03/29/tesla-full-self-driving-computer-retrofit-elon-musk/

In that same discussion/thread (vert line) Elon answered that AP 2.0 owners would get 'FSD computer upgrade' (HW3).

 

[Ryshaw]

In that same discussion/thread (vert line) Elon answered that AP 2.0 owners would get 'FSD computer upgrade' (HW3).

Thanks @Scott. I didn’t read that far down into the responses. I still am a bit weary about the hardware differences, as I see this as being a potential significant expense to retrofit (especially the camera upgrade / replacement), if necessary. Time will tell I suppose.

 

[Leopold Stotch]

I also assume AP2.0 cars will need more than just the chip upgrade. But I safely assume Tesla will handle it when the time comes as Elon has been very consistent on this topic and also they sold the FSD product, so they will figure it out. This is not merely a tweet on a whim. It’s a product sold.

 

[HostileHarry]

I also assume AP2.0 cars will need more than just the chip upgrade. But I safely assume Tesla will handle it when the time comes as Elon has been very consistent on this topic and also they sold the FSD product, so they will figure it out. This is not merely a tweet on a whim. It’s a product sold.

I’ve been wondering about all of this as well for my X. 2016 with AP2.0 pre purchased FSD pre delievery. I really wonder what will it’s going to take to make FSD work on 2.0 cars. This could very well workout for those of us that pre purchased.... almost 3 years ago

 

[boaterva]

For clarity, as has been said in other threads, the AP2.5 to AP3 upgrade will be the replacement of the AP computer board, not a ‘chip’. This requires (in the AP2.5 S and X) removing the glove compartment, unhooking several plugs and swapping the board. Nothing more that we know of. Don’t know of any software changes needed.

Estimate for an experienced tech is about 30 minutes. Those who have worked in this area installing the front camera kit are familiar with the cables and gaining access.

I have no idea what is needed for AP2 and the process may not exist at this time. When 2.5 came out it was said (and since then confirmed) that we got different cameras and redundant other pieces. How much of that would be part of a ‘AP3’ upgrade would be interesting to see (for AP2 cars).

Note also there have been threads here confirming that cars are being produced with code APH4 (hardware AP3) so it’s already in production, as far as we can see.

 

[iTech]

For clarity, as has been said in other threads, the AP2.5 to AP3 upgrade will be the replacement of the AP computer board, not a ‘chip’. This requires (in the AP2.5 S and X) removing the glove compartment, unhooking several plugs and swapping the board. Nothing more that we know of. Don’t know of any software changes needed.

Estimate for an experienced tech is about 30 minutes. Those who have worked in this area installing the front camera kit are familiar with the cables and gaining access.

I have no idea what is needed for AP2 and the process may not exist at this time. When 2.5 came out it was said (and since then confirmed) that we got different cameras and redundant other pieces. How much of that would be part of a ‘AP3’ upgrade would be interesting to see (for AP2 cars).

Note also there have been threads here confirming that cars are being produced with code APH4 (hardware AP3) so it’s already in production, as far as we can see.

If they have to only swap out the computer, the process is the same for AP2/2.5 on the S/X.

 

[boaterva]

If they have to only swap out the computer, the process is the same for AP2/2.5 on the S/X.

No, it’s not (for AP2.0). AP2.5 included different cameras. Look it up. And I was talking about AP2.5 for the S and X. The point was what extra may be needed for the 2.0 cars. Which was the subject of confusion in Elon’s tweets last night when he seemed to confirm they get it (free FSD computer) also.

It’s not just a board swap if they need camera and/or other changes. Some may be ‘nice’ like some harness redundancy to support some legal issues for levels of autonomy. Some may be required/needed for nighttime red/green stoplight use, for example.

We do know the cameras changed. What else we don’t know, I’m not sure we know at this point.

 

[scottf200]

No, it’s not (for AP2.0). AP2.5 included different cameras. Look it up. And I was talking about AP2.5 for the S and X. The point was what extra may be needed for the 2.0 cars. Which was the subject of confusion in Elon’s tweets last night when he seemed to confirm they get it (free FSD computer) also.
It’s not just a board swap if they need camera and/or other changes. Some may be ‘nice’ like some harness redundancy to support some legal issues for levels of autonomy. Some may be required/needed for nighttime red/green stoplight use, for example.
We do know the cameras changed. What else we don’t know, I’m not sure we know at this point.

Re: Some may be required/needed for nighttime red/green stoplight use
I was thinking that verygreen/greentheonly had an AP2.0 car? He just posted videos recently of enabling the hidden stoplight processing. Red light detection, stop sign detection, stopping!

Some info I saved off/shared with my geeky kid.

green @greentheonly Also there's no difference between HW 2.0 and HW2.5 compute nodes, but the reason you cannot get dashcam is because hw2.0 uses RCCC camera filter, so it's a lot harder to get color output from it (or Tesla is too lazy to bother). hw2.5 uses RCCB camera filter. 8/

RCCC and RCCB are color filters on the camera sensor. RCCC = Red Clear Clear Clear pixels in a 4 pixel-clusters. In RCCB it's Red Clear Clear Blue.
Regular "color" cameras are RGGB (G=Green) in a bayer pattern.

RCCC picture:
AP2.0 Cameras: Capabilities and Limitations?
AP2.0 Cameras: Capabilities and Limitations?

Misc search found: Sensor | imatest
Color Filter Arrays
Bayer Sensors (RGGB)
Most color consumer image sensors include this format of image sensor

Monochrome Sensor
This is the lack of a color filter array.

Red Clear Clear Clear (RCCC)
This automotive sensor maximizes light sensitivity while enabling a red channel that allows

Red Clear Clear Blue (RCCB)
This automotive sensor improved sensitivity. Imatest’s green channel can be interpreted as the clear channel, which can also be interpreted as the Luminance channel. Color balance with a color correction matrix can compensate for the lack of green filtered pixels which allows an ordinary RGB image to be obtained.

 

[iTech]

No, it’s not (for AP2.0). AP2.5 included different cameras. Look it up. And I was talking about AP2.5 for the S and X. The point was what extra may be needed for the 2.0 cars. Which was the subject of confusion in Elon’s tweets last night when he seemed to confirm they get it (free FSD computer) also.

It’s not just a board swap if they need camera and/or other changes. Some may be ‘nice’ like some harness redundancy to support some legal issues for levels of autonomy. Some may be required/needed for nighttime red/green stoplight use, for example.

We do know the cameras changed. What else we don’t know, I’m not sure we know at this point.

You were never going to get anything besides a computer swap, which means the retrofit is the same for AP2/2.5. I don't get why people keep thinking otherwise.

 

[jayman]

You were never going to get anything besides a computer swap, which means the retrofit is the same for AP2/2.5. I don't get why people keep thinking otherwise.

I get how you could think that. What I don’t get is how you don’t understand the ambiguity that arises between promised FSD to HW 2.0 folks while there are differences between the sensors and radar of HW 2.5 folks. If your not confused you’re reading the tea leaves wrong.

 

[boaterva]

The question really is ‘how important for what level of functionality is the changes/additions made for/with 2.5’. If FSD (for varying definitions of the term perhaps?!) can be achieved with just the addition of the ‘FSD computer’ then perhaps, yes, that’s all that is needed.

There has to be some limitations if that is ALL that is done or the other changes would not have been implemented. Red light? Some level of redundancy? Some level of low light? I don’t know. But they do/have to exist.

 

[iTech]

I get how you could think that. What I don’t get is how you don’t understand the ambiguity that arises between promised FSD to HW 2.0 folks while there are differences between the sensors and radar of HW 2.5 folks. If your not confused you’re reading the tea leaves wrong.

That part only comes into play if Tesla ever applies for validation from regulators, which won't happen for an incredibly long long time.

 

[boaterva]

That part only comes into play if Tesla ever applies for validation from regulators, which won't happen for an incredibly long long time.

Point taken. Older/current cars could be grandfathered at some level of autonomy....

Tesla may be counting on AP2.0 cars being (mostly) on the way out by ‘whenever’ it really matters.

 

[iTech]

Point taken. Older/current cars could be grandfathered at some level of autonomy....

Tesla may be counting on AP2.0 cars being (mostly) on the way out by ‘whenever’ it really matters.

Exactly. The radar in 2.0 is worse than 2.5 but Tesla's strategy has always been vision based so I don't see why Tesla would swap out the radar.

 

[jayman]

Point taken. Older/current cars could be grandfathered at some level of autonomy....

Tesla may be counting on AP2.0 cars being (mostly) on the way out by ‘whenever’ it really matters.

I guess that’s what really bothers me about this and why I feel like such a sucker for buying FSD years ago. Tesla has no incentive to hurry and it only cost them less the longer they wait while us HW2.0’s die out or buy newer teslas. The question would be then, would the anger of all those HW2.0 customers lead them to buy alternatives.

 

[Silicon Desert]

Exactly. The radar in 2.0 is worse than 2.5 but Tesla's strategy has always been vision based so I don't see why Tesla would swap out the radar.

Good point. However it seems that there may soon be 2 radars to better support FSD. We shall see.

 

[iTech]

Good point. However it seems that there may soon be 2 radars to better support FSD. We shall see.

2.5 has 2 radars, unless you mean something else?

 

[KyleDay]

2.5 has 2 radars, unless you mean something else?

No it does not. No Tesla has ever had 2 radars. Only one front facing.

 

[iTech]

No it does not. No Tesla has ever had 2 radars. Only one front facing.

Oh he meant two physical radars