FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[JulienW]

You are on the Internet reading my post. I could care less, but if I did I wouldn't bother typing this.

If I couldn't care less I wouldn't have bothered writing this.

Anyone that says they couldn't care less and bothers to type out a big post, isn't speaking accurately or being honest.

This is incorrect. Figurative analogy of the post I quoted.

[newbie wanting to buy a Tesla] Looked at a red Tesla and told it adds $2000 to the price. What colors don't cost extra since I couldn't care less about the color and just want to get the best price.

 

[SidetrackedSue]

So far no cars on 3.25 have moved to anything looking at TeslaFi data. I would guess the large majority of these cars are people who aren't subscribed.

I hesitate to assume the TeslaFi subscribers mirror the makeup of the general tesla ownership. I could be wrong but my gut tells me that people willing to pay for the data their car generates are also those willing to pay for FSD and who are curious about knowing all about the tech their car has.

I could very well be wrong, but I'm the sort of person who had a 'car book' that tracked every fill-up, every bit of maintenance and service, and tracked road trip mileage. That's how I knew what sort of 'hit' my tesla range would take in winter (I was coming from a hybrid so had a bit of experience with traction batteries.)

When we got Casper we set up a google sheet we could update in the car. It took so long to enter in stuff, I started to think about getting a car book to write in because it is less aggravating. Then, cuz I was on TMC to find out about all the tech features of my car, I learned about Teslafi and subscribed. I'm annoyed at having to pay for my own data but on the other hand, it means I no longer have to write anything but maintenance and service on the spreadsheet. (And we make written notes on the receipts and then enter those from a computer rather than on the screen.)

Even though I want to use my tesla as a car not some sort of project to advance driving capability, and though I hate the car (because the advancing driving capability updates eff me over almost every time), I'm still on teslafi. But I doubt other people who bought teslas to function as just cars, are as obsessed with data and on Teslafi. After all, I've seldom met anyone with a 'car book' like I had, and shut up many of those without when I would pull it out and point out the price of gas was NOT as cheap as they remembered 3 or 4 years prior. (Or shut up 'mechanics' insisting my car needed additional service during my oil change because I could tell them the part had been swapped last time and did that mean they'll replace the 'faulty' part under warranty?)

 

[sleepydoc]

If I'm lucky.

if you'd just remember that Elon likes his lattes with 1% milk, not 2%...really, Josh. It's not that hard!

 

[sleepydoc]

That has nothing to do with how early someone gets new releases.

The best way to get a release earlier is to not do what @j0shm1lls does!

 

[sleepydoc]

Yeah I’m not claiming the poster is lying…but something isn’t right. The described behavior is not characteristic of v12 running properly. Maybe the car needs a reboot, calibration, or something else.

or it's @AlanSubie4Life 's twin brother.

I've been on 12.3.6 for a week, 12.3.4 before that and it's rare I need to do anything other than use the accelerator to fix the speed bugs for the vast majority of my driving.

I did have a couple incidents yesterday where FSD suddenly braked quite aggressively on the highway. The first one was to slow down to merge behind another car so it could make an exit but it was far more aggressive than necessary and made the poor driver behind me slam on his brakes so he wouldn't rear end me. The next one was shortly after that as it was coming off the cloverleaf, preparing to merge. There were no cars to be concerned about so I have no idea what the reason was.

The rest of the drive (2 ½ hours, 150 miles) was completely uneventful other than speed corrections.

 

[DrGriz]

Perhaps. I will try the reboot and camera calibration as it was coincident with the 14.6 update. Hoping for the best.

I have tried recalibration and rebooted for the 3 versions of FSDS I have experienced this last month. No change in the "behavior" when encountering a reduced speed zone, when the car's mapping is correct. It just coasts. No active slowing. This is the same behavior all of my friends experience living in semi rural and rural areas in California and Idaho. It's not the cars. Unless someone thinks they are sending out different subversions of 12.x to rural owners this is a terrible release. Coasting from 65mph to 60mph in a 25mph zóne is tremendously dangerous behavior. Inexcusable.

 

[zoomer0056]

I could care less,

"I couldn't care less."

 

[Twiglett]

Perhaps. I will try the reboot and camera calibration as it was coincident with the 14.6 update. Hoping for the best.

I try to reboot after each update, just for the heck of it and because it's really easy to do. Recalibrating cameras is a PITA and takes too long so that's only when its really needed. If your car is that messed up maybe it will help.
I've only recalibrated the car cameras twice, but it was doing pretty silly stuff before that and it seemed to resolve the overall weirdness I was experiencing with FSD(then Beta) YMMV

 

[gottagofast]

I try to reboot after each update, just for the heck of it and because it's really easy to do. Recalibrating cameras is a PITA and takes too long so that's only when its really needed. If your car is that messed up maybe it will help.
I've only recalibrated the car cameras twice, but it was doing pretty silly stuff before that and it seemed to resolve the overall weirdness I was experiencing with FSD(then Beta) YMMV

Doesn’t the car reboot anyway by itself after an update?

 

[Mardak]

Did Tesla specifically focus on improving 12.x hand signals or it comes from general improvement from 12.3 disengagements?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1789013850563428567

If more of the latter, should we expect some questionable corner case 12.3 behaviors to have big improvements in 12.4?

 

[Twiglett]

Another drive on my way out that included the dreaded Hwy95 (mostly two lane with occasional overtaking lanes, speeds from 50-65)
There is something about this section of road that FSDS really doesn't like
It will not recognize 65mph signs, but is fine with 60 or less.
It gets very peculiar on one section, its not like its unsure, more like its lost track of the road markings and starts to ping pong to the point of it being uncomfortable.
On two sections is makes a concerted effort to get into the oncoming lane on the left. No signals, it just bounces over the rumble strip and double yellow lines in the center. It's OK when there is no oncoming traffic, but a different story when there is inbound traffic doing 70mph.
My feedback to them may have contained some cursing for those.
For those issues it isn't lacking in confidence, it's just that it's confident but badly wrong.
But on other parts of the trip it's still confident and is extremely good.

 

[GlmnAlyAirCar]

Doesn’t the car reboot anyway by itself after an update?

Yes

 

[EVNow]

Yeah I’m not claiming the poster is lying…but something isn’t right. The described behavior is not characteristic of v12 running properly. Maybe the car needs a reboot, calibration, or something else.

Actually the highlighted problems are at the core of v12 issues.
- speed control
- close to the lines

Now, one person may not find it all that bad and the other terrible. For me, it works in general and have to rarely push the accelerator or disengage because of the above, but some others can be sensitive. Esp. newer users. If you can’t figure out whether the car is slowing down enough to stop before hitting the car in front, it’s no fun driving V12.

Ofcourse my problem with v12 is more around lane selection and planning. But for some others it might work ok …

 

[FSDtester#1]

Actually the highlighted problems are at the core of v12 issues.
- speed control
- close to the lines

Now, one person may not find it all that bad and the other terrible. For me, it works in general and have to rarely push the accelerator or disengage because of the above, but some others can be sensitive. Esp. newer users. If you can’t figure out whether the car is slowing down enough to stop before hitting the car in front, it’s no fun driving V12.

Ofcourse my problem with v12 is more around lane selection and planning. But for some others it might work ok …

My reason for total disagreement with the original post is the post is not believable when saying v11 is anywhere comparable to v12. Is v12 perfect? No, however it is light years ahead of v11, even with its problems. Very few, if any testers here have more miles on fsd than me. I've used it 100% of the time since 9/2021. Except to teach ice cars a lesson at red lights.

V12 is way better on 99% of drives then v11, full stop.
This is not debatable... except for the uninitiated and malcontents..

 

[Singuy]

I disagree. We need to able to take different experiences as they are stated. Their experience is as true to them as the above post about not any disengagement in 45 minutes drives are to the above poster.

LoL what?

I interpreted the post as taking a few minor but real v12 flaws, and overexaggerating them for attempted comedic effect.

The current state of FSD (to me) is that it's incredibly mind-blowingly amazing, yet at the same time, not nearly where it needs to be. The incredible part is the super-wide ODD and general competency at most things, including a very humanlike driving style much of the time. The "not nearly" part is for still having to disengage every couple miles for simple, sometimes inexplicable mistakes, such as trying to drive straight from a well-marked left-turn-only lane, or being oblivious to large potholes, or being inadvertently rude to other drivers. (Also for making me goose the accelerator far more often than I'd like, which sometimes makes it feel like I'm manually controlling the speed with one-pedal driving, to the point that all FSD is doing is side-to-side lanekeeping.)

It's been observed that most airplane crashes are typically the result of about seven compounding mistakes, any small subset of which would be minor on their own. Car crashes also often involve multiple mistakes; a combination of one car doing something unexpected, and another car not paying attention or not being able to react in time to take evasive action. As such, reducing car crashes may ultimately be as much about reducing common minor mistakes (e.g. doing something erratic or unexpected, even if not illegal or directly dangerous) as it is about reducing the rarer major mistakes. This blurs the line of what constitutes a "safety intervention": if driving predictably enhances safety, then driving erratically decreases it. An intervention could thus be considered a "safety intervention" without having to be an "imminent collision intervention", at least in my book.

As incredible as FSD v12 is, I still believe it's many years away from full L4, and probably will never reach it with the current hardware stack. So the question becomes, what constitutes useful L2 (or L3)? I think that useful city-streets L2 will be when the most common head-scratching failures are solved; turning from incorrect lanes, ignoring lane guides, being oblivious to large potholes and road debris, irritating other drivers. The car needs to drive in a way that combines efficiency (proper speed and lane selection, and accepting the right of way) with being polite to other drivers and not getting honked at. When FSD can regularly do a 10-mile drive through complicated urban traffic and street patterns without making me wince, I'll consider that useful city-streets L2. (It's already useful L2 on highway, and has been for several years.) Bring on v12.4, I can't wait!

Waymo doesn't avoid pot holes and it's driving at or below the speed limit. It sometimes go the compete wrong way and people on the road has to avoid the car as the car just keeps on driving without anyone to disengage. It also have slammed on the brake for no good reason, hence why it gets rear ended a lot.

Did any of these problems prevented it from being L4? Nope.

Imo Tesla's fsd performance surpassed waymo's as it is forced to handle much more challenging scenarios. This includes all the unreasonable 6 lane blind UPLs, needing to go 15% over the speed limit at all times, navigating through parking garages and extremely busy parking lots, etc etc. Many places waymo doesn't even touch.

 

[tmoz]

"I couldn't care less."

And while we are at it
They're, Their, There.
effect, affect
then, than
...

 

[EVNow]

V12 is way better on 99% of drives then v11, full stop.
This is not debatable... except for the uninitiated and malcontents..

Hmmm … not so sure. Personally the big plus with V12 is roundabouts for me. Negatives are lane keeping and speed control. I think both have issues with lane selection.

Here is something we have actually discussed before
- V12 seems to address some of the issues v11 had which made v11 bad for a lot of people
- But V12 is not that big a jump for people who could already use V11 effectively, but v12 also introduced speed control issues

 

[FSDtester#1]

Hmmm … not so sure. Personally the big plus with V12 is roundabouts for me. Negatives are lane keeping and speed control. I think both have issues with lane selection.

Here is something we have actually discussed before
- V12 seems to address some of the issues v11 had which made v11 bad for a lot of people
- But V12 is not that big a jump for people who could already use V11 effectively, but v12 also introduced speed control issues

I used v10, v11 and now v12 for all drives. V11 did ok in plenty of situations.
It isn't close to the comfort of v12. Lane keeping and speed will be addressed in upcoming releases. The point is, before v12, it was always 2 steps forward and 1 step back. This is not the case with v12.

 

[JulienW]

Damn v12 can be impressive. Today went on the east side and ran down and up the Eastside Beltline then on my way home I looped the long way and went south meandering through Midtown and into Downtown. Then went over to Olympic Park and through GA Tech campus (unfortunately not too my students now) and then north home to *Atlantic Station and without a SINGLE disengagement and only a few interventions and of course a little Elon cursing as usual.

*Looks like at least 10 of the 30 Superchargers are down in Atlantic Station. The most out of order I have ever seen and likely to get even worst because of one of the most obtuse/childish moves ever.

 

[Singuy]

Hmmm … not so sure. Personally the big plus with V12 is roundabouts for me. Negatives are lane keeping and speed control. I think both have issues with lane selection.

Here is something we have actually discussed before
- V12 seems to address some of the issues v11 had which made v11 bad for a lot of people
- But V12 is not that big a jump for people who could already use V11 effectively, but v12 also introduced speed control issues

What is this lane keeping issue? I have zero lane keeping issue on hw4 model Y. It has never gotten close to a curb even leaving a parking garage. My friend is not seeing any difference either and she said she has been attentive about it since people online have been talking about curb rash.