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FSD v12.x (end to end AI)
- Thread starter Buckminster
- Start date
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- #fixphantombraking autopilot chill is not chill elon is an ass fix fsd extreme late deceleration fsd does not commit to go fsd does not maintain proper speed fsd hard and late braking fsd jerky driving fsd late deceleration fsd stops too early too quickly fsd stops too far behind line fsd tailgating in city streets
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
I think we already pretty much follow the 0mph rule at all stop lights, unless we're running them.
As for stop signs, sure.
But then there's everything that isn't a stop light or sign... and there's the rub. Of course I haven't experienced V12, but prior versions are waaaay too timid for New England driving, to the point I have no interest in beta testing after I've seen the timidity a few times with each new release. The frequency of incidents where, if I were behind myself I'd be cussing me out are just too frequent. My main hope for V12 is for that issue to be mitigated here in NE.
I wonder if end-to-end can figure out which signs and roads are on private property vs public because people do behave differently perhaps due to a difference in enforceability. Some areas the legal stop sign is only allowed to be placed by the government, so private ones can be different, e.g., blue or smaller. In any case, current 12.x behavior seems to attempt to treat stop signs equally maybe because it isn't able to differentiate, and Tesla doesn't want to get recalled again for the same issue of not completely stopping.
powertoold
Active Member
powertoold
Active Member
I'm searching YouTube for driving videos now:
Not a 0mpher:
Not a 0mpher:
Not a 0mpher:
Not a 0mpher:
I've never actually seen anyone in all my time walking around my neighborhood stop to 0mph with no other cars or VRUs to contend with
Not a 0mpher:
Not a 0mpher:
Not a 0mpher:
Not a 0mpher:
I've never actually seen anyone in all my time walking around my neighborhood stop to 0mph with no other cars or VRUs to contend with
powertoold
Active Member
It's not about coming to full stops. It's about coming to a full stop behind the line, at all times, for whatever reason. Try driving that like and critique yourself about your speed, smoothness, comfort, creeping, etc.
It seems like there should be other indications of development progress towards robotaxi, e.g., this owners joining in before a Tesla serviced fleet, but at an even smaller scale and effort. I'm thinking of potential workarounds for situations that end-to-end might still have trouble with, e.g., smarter navigation to avoid potentially unsafe intersections/maneuvers, as these would reflect active development of not requiring a human driver to intervene. I suppose that would be impossible to tell from just early 12.x, and who knows what additional training or even neural network architectural changes will come as part of later versions that might avoid needing workarounds.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Why is this topic coming up again?
It’s not a problem that FSD stops at stop signs.
The problem is mostly the going part. And to a lesser extent how it performs the stop itself.
This has been discussed at great length, with video evidence of the issue with the current stop profile.
Just totally a non issue though when it comes to v12. I have not seen any issues arise due to the vehicle stopping at the stop line.
There are lots of problems at stops, of course.
For deployment, it needs to be much safer than a human driver. And of course, it needs to be able to do the robotaxi task of picking up and dropping off passengers. V12 could be good enough by the end of the year. Or two. Or three. I think the odds of getting started in one city within 1 to 3 years are quite high.
Yeah, it could be that Cruise was just unlucky. It was quite a freak accident.
Artful Dodger
"Neko no me"
The problem with Cruise wasn't the freak accident, it's that their car didn't realize the person was underneath the car and so dragged them 20 feet to the curb. Out of vew of the LIDAR, and poof! no person, no problem, right? Cruise mgmt made matters worse with a literal attempted cover-up.
The missing feature in Cruise is "object permanence'. Tesla FSD solves this through persistance of memory for occluded objects, which was implemented in the vision system some time ago. I doubt even FSD v11.x would have dragged that person under the car, given how shy it is around pedestrians.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Not sure that is solved. I have not seen anyone do any experiments. (I also haven’t searched.) I believe it likely has some permanence, of course. I do not know how much though.
Well, around here (New England) it's considerably more than just that. Often, coming to a stop "behind the line" means you can't see oncoming traffic from the direction you need to, and no one (except perhaps when there are pedestrians walking on them) pays much attention to the lines. A tuned-in FSD would slow and then stop where there's the necessary visibility. V11 doesn't know about that, it stops where it's "supposed to" as per the lines and then creeps, creeps, creeps up to the point it can actually see if there are cars coming or not. The "right" way would be to get to that point more quickly, look, and then get the heck out of Dodge at a brisk pace. That's what I'm hoping to see from V12.
powertoold
Active Member
Yes, that's illegal. NHTSA is requiring Tesla to stop to 0mph behind the line, every time, no matter what.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Yep. As mentioned - it is not the stopping at the line (as legally required) that is most of the problem - it is what happens afterwards.
There’s really no issue with stopping at the line and I don’t get the obsession. And I do tend to get obsessed.
Just stop at the line then quickly advance to where it can see what it needs (yes, there are many cases, much discussed, where this is not possible). Then quickly go! It’s not even necessary to stop again (yes, in some cases it is necessary and legally required to stop again).
The very beginning of this 12.1.2 video leaving Tesla Corte Madera seems to be the type of situation you're describing:
Where 12.x ends up stopping (0:10) where legally required before creeping for visibility and stopping (0:18) for cross traffic. The behavior you describe of stopping once at a good spot for visibility (here in the crosswalk) is probably the common human behavior that probably could have allowed it to make the turn before the cross traffic arrived.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Car stopped at 11 seconds cross traffic at 19 seconds.
No issue with the stop. Lots and lots of time. What happens after 11 is the issue. Also what happens before 11 but it’s right after engagement so we can give it a pass.
Human can stop legally and totally send it and smoke the Prius. No necks will be harmed. Eternity.
Only one stop is required in most cases.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
Can you imagine having to live your life as a Prius? Maybe the Tesla just felt bad for it. Or it was silently snickering and forgot to move.
Some major déjà vu happening here reading everybody's take on the next, yet-to-be-experienced-but-promised-to-be-fire FSD version. Either this is a whole new group of posters or the posters here have short-term memories. What I have learned from driving on the FSD ADAS suite since October of 2018 (when they released NoA) is that Elon's, Omar's, Dirty Tesla's, and all the rest's comments don't mean squat - I'll believe it when I drive it.
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