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If I don’t have 12.3 by 6am I’m going to find a 1967 Dodge Dart in a junkyard, fill it with a combination of 87 octane and kerosine, fill the oil tank to WELL ABOVE the fill line (gasp!), remove the catalytic converter, park near a grove of young trees, and hold the RPMs at 6,000 as the trees get doused in poisonous gas until the tank runs dry.

My terms have been laid out. Tesla, you have less than 8 hours to comply.
LOL I know you're just "venting" as it were. ;)

But I can save you some work - a 1967 Dodge Dart (or any other '67) didn't have a catalytic converter.

Still, your post did bring back memories of that awful mandated car destruction procedure in the infamous Cash for Clunkers boondoggle about 15 years ago. Pour sodium silicate abrasive into the crankcase and race it until the thing finally dies. So bad!

I have an alternate suggestion: make up some Dan O'Dowd style posterboard pedestrians and run over them repeatedly with your v11 FSD Tesla until you get your download.
 
I agree, I think they have "dials" turned down low for this release. We've seen it before in previous releases where it seems timid and they "unleash" it.

I suspect this is a good place to start with such a massive change, much easier to have the driver add a little more acceleration versus having them going "whoa!"
Just a bug. Probably won’t be fixed robustly in the next release either. May be a very difficult problem.

driver add a little more acceleration versus having them going "whoa!"
The acceleration is fine. Could be more aggressive in some situations, but usually fine. The speed is the issue.
 
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Had a nice long drive late this afternoon to drop of some foster kittens to their forever home. Why is this relevant? When we picked them up a few months ago I drove manually to keep minimize the stress for them. I was confident enough V12 to least make an attempt with FSDb.

TL;DR; 50+ minute drive, all "city streets", zero disengagement, three accelerator interventions.

The return trip had more interesting learnings.

New discovery:

The chill/average/assertive setting clearly affect the max speed chosen for the limited highway access.

Notes from the drive.
Alan predicts that most (many?) people will dislike the braking profile. My guess is the opposite, many will like it. I think it will make people more comfortable, particularly if they are new to FSDb on city streets. The quick shedding of speed will reduce the sensation of "charging towards the car/light". This means the car is spending more time in the lower speed regime which I think is confidence building for a new FSDb driver.

The car still doesn't move up/down aggressively enough to keep cars being next to it even when there is space. This could be just side effect of the slow speed up.

The 50+ minute drive to deliver was amazing in how smooth it was. Yes, I (as many others have used the word smooth many times). I got a chance to contrast this with V11 because I ended doing some of the drive over because we forgot something for the kittens. I drove back later in our Model 3 which is still on V11.

The two necessary interventions were at cross walks with optional traffic lights in front of Santa Clara high school that were off, and the car looked like it was going to stop. One other "speed up" intervention. My wife also thought the drive was also very good. V12 entered the parking lot of the townhomes like pro, V11 (later) was poor.

After dropping the kittens off we headed to dinner. There were a couple of failures here. First one was it was being in the wrong lane, it needed to make a right turn ahead, but it stayed in the lane that was taking us to the on ramp of a freeway. The second failure was it appeared to misjudge where a driveway was, it was going too fast to make the turn (basically it was late slowing down). What was interesting about both failures was it didn't feel like a typical V11 failure where there is "panicked" wheel jerking or braking or fighting the car. I was able to disengage and smoothly move in the next for the first failure and in the second case, just keep going straight to make the next right turn and just go around. Basically, not that different when I human misses it.

Turn signal usage was good as others have previously noted. I didn't manually prompt/cancel any lane changes on drive to drop off.

It was during the drive home that I noticed that max speed was different when on a limited access freeway. Switching between chill/average/assertive confirmed that it was driving this change. I was trying to see if the following distance was modified by this setting, and it appears to be the case. I believe this is just continuation of the previous V11 behavior. The "max speed" is V12/V11 combo feature though.

Near our house that V11 had a "habit" if entering the left turn lane late. V12 has been perfect and early on this. So, a little inconsistent.

One of the potential dangers I see is that it can be "good enough" to further idea in some people that it is a "robo taxi". Of course, people have already been making this mistake already.
 
Had a nice long drive late this afternoon to drop of some foster kittens to their forever home. Why is this relevant? When we picked them up a few months ago I drove manually to keep minimize the stress for them. I was confident enough V12 to least make an attempt with FSDb.
Kitten-approved build!
 
So let's inject a few calm thoughts here...

Over the last 3-4 years Tesla have been working on what they have now branded as "TeslaVision", which is basically the "passive" end of the AP stack that takes raw camera etc input and generates a "world-view" of the car's surroundings, both statically (where stuff is) and dynamically (where moving stuff is going). That's what Karpathy and his AI team were working on all this time. It was a huge gamble as no-one had tried anything like it before (really). And the gamble seems to have pretty much paid off. NoA with the V11 vision stack is now vastly better, phantom braking is hugely mitigated, and FSD in V11 demonstrated that the car could reliably build an accurate world view w/o lidar/radar etc (something a LOT of people, including many on these forums, had serious doubts about).

BUT, the "active" end of the V10/V11 stack sitting on top of TeslaVision was a mess: that 300,000+ line pile of C++ code doing all the active planning and driving. If you look back at the evolution of the V10.x and V11.x line, it's pretty clear that Tesla has lost control of that code base. The tell-tale signs were the long times to fix issues and the regressions as one fix caused other previously working features to break. Once code gets to this point a re-write is mandated (though if that doesnt happen the developers have job security maintaining the huge mess!).

That's what V12 is really all about. And Tesla is making another big bet, just like they did with TeslaVision .. that they can do with NNs what they could not do with traditional code. So right now, V12.x is really V0.9 of the planner etc implemented in a brand new NN stack sitting on top of a mature TeslaVision NN stack.

So yeah, of course it's not doing some things as well as V11. Did you expect it to be better than V11 at everything? That's not how technology works. Its a saw-tooth .. the new approach is bound to regress for some stuff, but the foundations have been laid for all the things that (in all probability) they would NEVER have been able to do AT ALL with the V11 stack.

V11 had reached a dead-end. This first release of V12, even in its infancy, is already nearly as good as the BEST they could get from V11. I'm actually surprised at how good V12 is for such an early release. And that, to my mind, is a clear indication that Tesla are on the right track (which, btw, I was privately very skeptical about, given the complexity of the problem .. they have surprised me).

Those of us who have been around long enough might remember operating systems like System 7 (on Macs) and Windows 95/98 (on PC). These both represented end-of-the lines for software stacks. They were getting old, and new features were hard or impossible to add to the aging and byzantine code bases. Both Apple and Microsoft were forced to re-write their respective OSes from scratch: OS X (macOS) for Apple and Windows NT (now Windows 11) for Microsoft. The early releases of those operating systems were serious feature regressions compared to the "last gasp" of their predecessors (slower, lacking in features, compatibility etc). BUT they laid the strong foundations on which Apple/MS could continue to innovate, and their newer versions are orders of magnitude better than System 7 or Windows 9x could ever have been. That's where we are now with V12 .. the very first release of the next generation, with the potential to grow WAY beyond the older V11 work-horse.

imho, it's going to be a very interesting year :)
 
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TeslaFi crash:

Temporarily offline. We'll be back in a few minutes.

Web server is down​

The web server is not returning a connection. As a result, the web page is not displaying.
  • Ray ID: 8674ecb75e
  • Your IP address:
  • Error reference number: 521
  • Cloudflare Location: Los Angeles
 
Musings on v12 speed control. We actually all drive this way but don't notice it ourselves. However we do notice other drivers doing this all the time ahead of us or beside us. Speeding up and slowing down. It can be especially obvious on Interstates when you have a cruse control set and you keep passing and then being passed by the same car.

I bet the Nets see this and are just over amplify it thinking it is good driving behavior.

EDIT: Makes sense that we city folks ain't bothered by it as much as country folks because of driving conditions.
 
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V12.3 has solved ALL my V11 issues:
- V11 used to stop or brake for a new traffic light recently installed that is not active yet. V12.3 breezed right through.
- V11 would take a certain right turn unto a busy road kinda jerky and understeer. V12.3 assertively made the right perfectly and then moved over to the left lane for the upcoming left turn.
- V11 would wait until the actual start of a turn only lane. V12.3 knows to move over in the "no man's land" to get in the turn only lane.
- The biggest issue. V11 was unusable on the small windy streets on the college campus where I work. Speed limit is 15 mph but V11 would go 25 mph (too fast). And V11 would try to center in the middle of the road especially when there were parking spaces on the side which V11 would see as part of the lane. V12.3 slowed down to 15-20 mph and followed the roads perfectly, very smooth steering. No ping ponging in parking spaces.

So far V12.3 has been a significant improvement. My 7 mile commute to work was pretty much perfect. No interventions, no scary moments, no jerkiness at all. The only nitpick was maybe a few spots where a human driver would have been more assertive and V12.3 was a bit too cautious. But overall, the commute on V12.3 was very smooth and very comfortable. And very nice acceleration curve too on a green light, assertive but not uncomfortable.
 
Had my first V12.3 drive for about 30 minutes through suburban Maryland and downtown DC. Overall, very impressed. A couple of disengagements for it choosing the wrong turn lane, but I would say on the whole, it did better than V11. My only slightly concerning disengagement was at this intersection, waiting to turn left:

1710936413492.png


Cars were backed up, so none of the turning arrows nor the short piece of double-yellow were visible. V12.3 started to go around the backup, and would have ended up on the left side of the double-yellow if I had not disengaged. But without being able to see the arrows or the double yellow, I can see how it thought that would be the left-turn lane and/or a decent space to navigate around a blockage.

Also, question for other city-drivers to ascertain whether V12.3 exhibits region-specific behavior: How good is V12 for you at not "blocking the box?" I was actually very impressed at how V12 would wait on the far side of an intersection or garage entrance if it thought it did not have room to traverse the intersection.
 
Thanks. Do most people not install updates when they're made available or was this just people being smart about getting v12 "early"? I feel foolish
No man. It’s not really like you had a choice. Everybody will get it eventually. The guys who are getting it “early” were mostly early beta testers who paid in full for it.

I believe. But there’s nothing to feel foolish about and nothing you could really do to change the time frame.
 
Notes from the drive.
Alan predicts that most (many?) people will dislike the braking profile. My guess is the opposite, many will like it. I think it will make people more comfortable, particularly if they are new to FSDb on city streets. The quick shedding of speed will reduce the sensation of "charging towards the car/light". This means the car is spending more time in the lower speed regime which I think is confidence building for a new FSDb driver.
Agree.
Sure there are times I would brake differently but overall it's fine and I don't pay much attention to braking anymore.
 
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A theory I've heard about why it's gone is that they don't have enough compute to run:
- V12 (actually driving the car)
- V11 stack (for visualizations and probably automatic emergency braking)
- V-whatever legacy stack that controls TACC (as fallback when you override steer and the car reverts to TACC)

So they had to cut something and they decided to turn off TACC.

That said with a bit more work they could let you turn on TACC when FSD is off, via a double stalk pull. That wouldn't run into any compute limits since it wouldn't need to run TACC in parallel.

Knowing Tesla they can be pretty ruthless in prioritization though and may have just decided TACC wasn't that important (we're beta testers after all, I personally think I've agreed to deal with drawbacks like that and I don't have to take every update).
Either not enough "compute" or not enough storage?