FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[TK211X]

I'm so confused. Why were people complaining about the set speed?

I realized that you have to set the automatic speed toggle in the menu. Today it delivered and went above the speed limit on it's own properly in multiple areas. Without the toggle it would only go up to the speed limit and slower. Is this what's causing the issues?

Also, the annoying thing is that setting to chill makes the vehicle very indecisive. Average still has some of that but it's the best mode so far. Assertive is like a jumpy teenager.


I've had multiple parking spot to destination zero intervention drives on AUTO speed enabled with AVERAGE set. The ones that had interventions were to avoid the curb issues. It's very real.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

. Without the toggle it would only go up to the speed limit and slower. Is this what's causing the issues?

No, not the issue. Your speed limit was likely set low enough it ended up being the control. Set the offset to +20% and you’ll probably find the modes are mostly indistinguishable except that in the old mode you can dial down the speed.

. Today it delivered and went above the speed limit on it's own properly in multiple areas

Just luck.

If you keep using it you’ll find the issues. Unless you routinely drive significantly below the speed limit, you’ll find you have issues. Even if you drive at the limit, it can sometimes drive slower.

I don’t think it has perception more than ~ 25 yards, MAYBE 35-40 at best

Best case certainly better than that. The question is whether it always sees what is happening. And then add any latency on top of that.

 

[rlsd]

I'm so confused. Why were people complaining about the set speed?

I realized that you have to set the automatic speed toggle in the menu. Today it delivered and went above the speed limit on it's own properly in multiple areas. Without the toggle it would only go up to the speed limit and slower. Is this what's causing the issues?

Also, the annoying thing is that setting to chill makes the vehicle very indecisive. Average still has some of that but it's the best mode so far. Assertive is like a jumpy teenager.


I've had multiple parking spot to destination zero intervention drives on AUTO speed enabled with AVERAGE set. The ones that had interventions were to avoid the curb issues. It's very real.

I have the same observation about speed like you have. Auto speed is more useful than manual speed.
Last night the car automatically went up to 36 mph on a 30 mph street for me (no accelerator press).

 

[KLam]

I’ve commented on this issue for many builds, but it’s now worse than ever on 12.xx.. the OFFSET from center, used to be ~ 18” from center, and 12” from RIGHT line, now it’s more like 24” from center left and 6” from right line. Only gotten worse and makes for quite risky driving when that right side is a bike or pedestrian - let alone parking shoulder. Here is a pic of the issue, this is a 1 mile stretch from my downtown, and the car doesn’t get any/much closer to the center - it just locks in like this.

I’ve tried resetting and re-calibrating cameras. I’m not sure why if ANYTHING service could/would do to correct what clearly seems to be an issue - and I’ve seen reports that others have something similar - but not all. Frankly, this should NOT be an issue, this seems like it really should be something that calibration, vision, whatever should be able to calibrate and orchestrate to vehicle to vehicle SAME vehicle experience and predictability should be SAME SAME., but clearly, it’s not.

I did, it didn’t help at all.

Sure WISH I could upload a picture of what I’m seeing.

Did your side rear view cameras showed similar offsets when driving?

 

[tivoboy]

Best case certainly better than that. The question is whether it always sees what is happening. And then add any latency on top of that.

I don’t really mean to split hairs here, but do you think there is a difference between SEEING and PERCEIVING? I’m pretty sure it SEES stuff down the road and somewhat around, but I don’t think it is bringing it into perception or perspective till much later.. at speed, temporally it’s not MUCH later, but relative to what is most in front and around, the real REAL TIME interpretation and rules/logic/AI based re-action but bring what is 40 yards + down the road into perception in parallel, that’s what I’m saying I don’t think it’s doing. As a driver, I, at speed on a highway I’m looking in front, side and rear either constantly or every 200-300 m/s. But I’m ALSO looking many vehicles in front of the car I’m following, looking for brake lights to illuminate, congestion growing etc.. probably every 2-3 seconds, probably more like 1-2 seconds. I have already built an expectation model for what is to COME farther down the road assuming everything at THAT point on the down the highway position remains same. And then of course making adjustments for even farther down the road - or at least mental preparations for.

THAT is the type of farther down the road PERCEIVING that I don’t yet see any evidence, either in discussion or on the screen - is happening.

 

[tivoboy]

Did your side rear view cameras showed similar offsets when driving?

When I can post a picture again, I’ll post it, but in the on screen rear and side view cams it’s pretty evident. I guess those are the REAR and the front quarter panel cams, and not the SIDE cams.. those are hard if not impossible to see in real time.

 

[mgs333]

Today when I used the accelerator to get up to speed, as soon as I let go, the car brakes hard enough to have my head jerk forward. I can only imagine what it's like for passengers in the back. This was frequent, maybe 70-80+% of the time, the other times it would kind of hold the speed. Yesterday it wasn't this jerky. Makes v12.3 unusable with passengers.

Also, today, it was happy going 37 in a 50, on a clear day on a wide open 4-5 lane (in each direction) major street where traffic flows around 55-60, a full 20mph slower than the flow of traffic. V12.3.1 can't get here fast enough.

 

[drtimhill]

If you keep using it you’ll find the issues. Unless you routinely drive significantly below the speed limit, you’ll find you have issues. Even if you drive at the limit, it can sometimes drive slower.

My issue is the opposite .. the car is quite happy doing 45+ on a 35 road .. something that can get you a ticket around here (especially late on a Saturday night).

 

[mgs333]

Odd, but, I noticed the drive is much better when set to average vs assertive and chill.

I tried average, it was worse than yesterday but I don't think it was because of the profile. Per Tesla, those modes are only supposed to affect the following distance and not things like how fast it goes/stops/turns etc. right?

 

[tivoboy]

ALSO appears that TMC picture upload is not working.

View attachment 1031528

I think some sort of mild in place site functionality upgrade is occurring, there are some new things showing up and maybe that broke attach/upload ability.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

My issue is the opposite .. the car is quite happy doing 45+ on a 35 road .. something that can get you a ticket around here (especially late on a Saturday night).

Again, that is consistent with what I said. It can certainly happen. But that’s super easy to control (assuming the detected speed is correct) - just turn off Auto Speed Offset, and set your manual offset to 0%, if that is what you want. AFAICT, you still get all the “benefits” of Auto Speed Offset, but with a speed cap. (Your car will always rapidly slow down to the detected limit, even after boosting it.)

If the detected speed is incorrect, that would also explain the behavior you observe (though I’m not sure it is a necessary condition).

Happy to be corrected on this if someone can describe how it actually works.

Today when I used the accelerator to get up to speed, as soon as I let go, the car brakes hard enough to have my head jerk forward. I can only imagine what it's like for passengers in the back. This was frequent, maybe 70-80+% of the time, the other times it would kind of hold the speed. Yesterday it wasn't this jerky. Makes v12.3 unusable with passengers.

Do you have Automatic Set Speed Offset enabled?

If you do not, be sure that your manual set speed offset is +20% or so. (Basically need to make sure the number displayed for your target speed is not below your current “blip” speed.)

If ASSO (Ass***e???) is on, not sure why that would be. Usually takes a while to decay. But who knows; lots of cases. Maybe it does take some action on the hidden speed cap sometimes.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I don’t really mean to split hairs here, but do you think there is a difference between SEEING and PERCEIVING? I’m pretty sure it SEES stuff down the road and somewhat around, but I don’t think it is bringing it into perception or perspective till much later.. at speed, temporally it’s not MUCH later, but relative to what is most in front and around, the real REAL TIME interpretation and rules/logic/AI based re-action but bring what is 40 years + down the road into perception in parallel, that’s what I’m saying I don’t think it’s doing

I think it certainly sees, perceives, and reacts to objects and events greater than 40 yards in front of the car, sometimes.

 

[JHCCAZ]

I survived! No referral points for you!

BARELY survived.

Good for you and for FSD!
From now on I will donate all my referral points to the March of Nines.

 

[mgs333]

Again, that is not inconsistent with what I said. It can certainly happen. But that’s super easy to control (assuming the detected speed is correct) - just turn off Auto Speed Offset, and set your manual offset to 0%, if that is what you want. AFAICT, you still get all the benefits of Auto Speed Offset, but with a speed cap. (Your car will always rapidly slow down to the detected limit, even after boosting it.)

If the detected speed is incorrect, that would also explain the behavior you observe (though I’m not sure it is a necessary condition).

Happy to be corrected on this if someone can describe how it actually works.


Do you have Automatic Set Speed Offset enabled?

If you do not, be sure that your manual set speed offset is +20% or so. (Basically need to make sure the number displayed for your target speed is not below your current “blip” speed.)

If ASSO (Ass***e???) is on, not sure why that would be. Usually takes a while to decay. But who knows; lots of cases. Maybe it does take some action on the hidden speed cap sometimes.

ASSO () was not on, my manual offset is 15%, I think the speed limit was 40, so the manual max is 46, the car was going ~32-35, I go up to 42 or so (def below 46), let go of the pedal, the car brakes before I have to jab the pedal again. It could be that despite my manual limit, the car determined the best speed is under 40.

Did the same thing in my neighborhood, 25 limit, 29 manual max, manually speed up to ~30, car immediately goes back down to ~20 as soon as I let go.

 

[rlsd]

ASSO () was not on, my manual offset is 15%, I think the speed limit was 40, so the manual max is 46, the car was going ~32-35, I go up to 42 or so (def below 46), let go of the pedal, the car brakes before I have to jab the pedal again. It could be that despite my manual limit, the car determined the best speed is under 40.

Did the same thing in my neighborhood, 25 limit, 29 manual max, manually speed up to ~30, car immediately goes back down to ~20 as soon as I let go.

Translated: either your car or your neighborhood is not safe for v12.3.

 

[TK211X]

I tried average, it was worse than yesterday but I don't think it was because of the profile. Per Tesla, those modes are only supposed to affect the following distance and not things like how fast it goes/stops/turns etc. right?

Is this true? Can we get confirmation from a source on this somewhere. I really want to know if my experience with the different modes was placebo.

 

[PianoAl]

Here's another instance revealing how long it takes for FSD to initially respond to a bad situation. I count ~1.5 secs. I guess nothing but nets gives no significant improvement here. I slow the video to 0.25x and divide elapsed time by 4. I've yet to see FSD respond quicker than ~1.5secs.

Are you counting from when the lead car put on his brakes? The emergency doesn't start until after that, when the car gets closer. It isn't immediately clear that the lead car is completely stopped.

I even wonder whether the car overreacted, stopping sooner than necessary, making a collision with the following car more likely. But the driver, on the scene, felt the car reacted appropriately.

 

[mgs333]

Are you counting from when the lead car put on his brakes? The emergency doesn't start until after that, when the car gets closer. It isn't immediately clear that the lead car is completely stopped.

I even wonder whether the car overreacted, stopping sooner than necessary, making a collision with the following car more likely. But the driver, on the scene, felt the car reacted appropriately.

To me it also seemed like the car made the situation worse than it actually was by waiting to brake then braking too hard nearly causing the car behind to rear end the car. Also it seems it could be the driver is the one who took over and braked too hard?

 

[jabloomf1230]

What signage indicates one can do a left from the outer lane?
View attachment 1031048View attachment 1031046View attachment 1031047

That's not a complete two lane roundabout. I can show the specific roundabout where FSD effed up and the signage shows that an outer lane "left," is one of the options.

 

[sleepydoc]

Are you counting from when the lead car put on his brakes? The emergency doesn't start until after that, when the car gets closer. It isn't immediately clear that the lead car is completely stopped.

I even wonder whether the car overreacted, stopping sooner than necessary, making a collision with the following car more likely. But the driver, on the scene, felt the car reacted appropriately.

The red car in front never actually stopped. I agree - it's not at all clear to me that there was an issue here and the driver actually took over so we don't know what would have happened.

The problem with braking is you have to judge how quickly the gap is closing. to do that you need a period of time. If you use a time period that's too short you get a system that is 'twitchy' and brakes too soon/unnecessarily. If you wait too long you waste valuable braking time. Regardless, this seems like a case where cars were traveling too fast and/or someone slammed on their brakes causing a chain reaction. Note how the car behind the driver in the video actually had to leave the lane to avoid rear ending him. If FSD had braked harder/faster there likely would have been an accident.