FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[EVNow]

The solution is crowd sourcing map data errors which is the major problem with FSD. NN works it's ability to drive which is getting rock solid. However it can only drive well determined by the map data.

I have been to cities with near perfect map data and the car was near flawless even on v11. This is why some people believes fsd is solved while others still think it's trash. I live in a city with horrendous map data and lane selection continues to be a struggle.

Yes, we have been talking about crowd sourced map data for a long time. Elon is determined not to rely on humans, I guess, so doesn’t want that. Or because he thinks it’s not scalable?

The other possibility is that we are wrong and most of these issues are not because of bad maps.

 

[lzolman]

The solution is crowd sourcing map data errors which is the major problem with FSD. NN works it's ability to drive which is getting rock solid. However it can only drive well determined by the map data.

I have been to cities with near perfect map data and the car was near flawless even on v11. This is why some people believes fsd is solved while others still think it's trash. I live in a city with horrendous map data and lane selection continues to be a struggle.

OK, so what's the full story about "crowd sourced map data" ? As this has the potential of being such an 800 lb. gorilla in the room, why have I heard essentially nothing about it except an occasional mention here on this board? Someone posted recently that they were able to go in and update the maps to make FSD able to find their driveway. I'd sure love to be able to do that if I could... or maybe fix my funky intersection down the street lol.

 

[Singuy]

OK, so what's the full story about "crowd sourced map data" ? As this has the potential of being such an 800 lb. gorilla in the room, why have I heard essentially nothing about it except an occasional mention here on this board? Someone posted recently that they were able to go in and update the maps to make FSD able to find their driveway. I'd sure love to be able to do that if I could... or maybe fix my funky intersection down the street lol.

I think the team is busy with transitioning FSD to full NN vs worrying about the other low hanging fruit. Probably the reason why there are many features not yet available like no right on red, school speed zones, reverse, etc.

 

[Mardak]

Have people noticed indecision wobble more (only?) with the turn signal engaged? It somewhat seems like end-to-end can confuse itself as the turn signal could mean either taking an upcoming turn or to switch lanes. At an intersection here with two left turn lanes where the outer lane can also go straight, 12.3.3 tends to unnecessarily switch from the left&straight lane to the left-only lane when there's traffic whereas when there's a clear view of the painted arrows, it happily stays in the outer left.

This turn signal confusion has needed disengagements such as 12.2.1 wanting to cross double-yellow when pulling into a left-turn lane. But this also allows for some control of 12.x such as suggesting lane selection and sometimes encouraging a turn.

 

[jabloomf1230]

will try this today.
(wife becoming a _tiny_ bit more comfortable with FSD(S))

Aerial photography overlay set with the earth icon on the navigation map.

 

[rlsd]

V12.3.3 pissed me off this morning.
1. The car was on the correct lane to make right turn to freeway ramp about .1 mile ahead. FSD jumped to the right lane (for right turn to the opposite direction of freeway) then cut in another car to jump back to the original lane. I reported the same issue many times earlier but this time I was upset with FSD because the driver of the behind car honked me.

This should be number 1 priority for Tesla to fix.

2. FSD had plenty of time to make right turn from freeway to street when the was a faraway car on the left of the street. Then FSD made right turn when that car was close. It's still OK to turn but why not turn earlier?

 

[tivoboy]

V12.3.3 pissed me off this morning.
1. The car was on the correct lane to make right turn to freeway ramp about .1 mile ahead. FSD jumped to the right lane (for right turn to the opposite direction of freeway) then cut in another car to jump back to the original lane. I reported the same issue many times earlier but this time I was upset with FSD because the driver of the behind car honked me.

This should be number 1 priority for Tesla to fix.

2. FSD had plenty of time to make right turn from freeway to street when the was a faraway car on the left of the street. Then FSD made right turn when that car was close. It's still OK to turn but why not turn earlier?

Making exits and turns off freeways seem to have gotten worse.

I had one a few weeks back where the car was in the RIGHT most lane, for an exit coming up in ~ 1.4m (on the nav), then the blinker went on and i thought wow, it’s putting the RIGHT exit blinker on VERY early, but it was a LEFT blinker to move to a “faster lane” Ok, cars in the RIGHT most lane WERE moving slower than the posted speed.. so I let the car move LEFT A LANE. then in about 3 seconds the blinker light goes on AGAIN and I think, OK it realized ITS ERROR and is now moving BACK to the RIGHT most EXIT lane now that we’re 1.1 miles from the exit.

but NO, the car had the LEFT BLINKER on and was moving into the NEXT LEFT lane for “faster lane”, so now the THIRD lane from the RIGHT most EXIT lane. OK, like an idiot I let it go LEFT another lane to watch what it would do. Meanwhile the RIGHT most and 2nd from the RIGHT lanes are all full up with cars going slower than the speed limit. So, at ~ .04 miles from the exit I dis-engaged (since missing this exit would be an at LEAST 10 minute detour) and nudged in lane by lane to make the exit.

It was stupid as F.. NO WAY in heck would the car have ever managed this. From just a cautious, prudent standpoint the car should of OF COURSE simply STAYED in the right most exit lane.

 

[JulienW]

V12.3.3 pissed me off this morning.
1. The car was on the correct lane to make right turn to freeway ramp about .1 mile ahead. FSD jumped to the right lane (for right turn to the opposite direction of freeway) then cut in another car to jump back to the original lane. I reported the same issue many times earlier but this time I was upset with FSD because the driver of the behind car honked me.

This should be number 1 priority for Tesla to fix.

2. FSD had plenty of time to make right turn from freeway to street when the was a faraway car on the left of the street. Then FSD made right turn when that car was close. It's still OK to turn but why not turn earlier?

The NNs have made V12 become sentient and V12 becomes fearful at the thought of handing over control to V11.

 

[APotatoGod]

Making exits and turns off freeways seem to have gotten worse.

Does anyone know exactly when the transition point is between the V11 stack that's being used for freeways, and the V12 stack used for cities? I wonder if that transition could be related to this issue, like if V11 is initially making a bad decision that V12 needs to correct, or if a more limited version of the network (maybe just lane keeping and TACC?) is briefly running as it transitions between the 2 main network versions? How long does that transition take?

Hopefully once V12 is updated to handle the freeways as well this problem may resolve itself.

 

[JulienW]

Does anyone know exactly when the transition point is between the V11 stack that's being used for freeways, and the V12 stack used for cities? I wonder if that transition could be related to this issue, like if V11 is initially making a bad decision that V12 needs to correct, or if a more limited version of the network (maybe just lane keeping and TACC?) is briefly running as it transitions between the 2 main network versions? How long does that transition take?

Hopefully once V12 is updated to handle the freeways as well this problem may resolve itself.

Easy to see. Have Auto Speed on and when V12 switches to V11 it will change to Max Speed.

 

[lzolman]

V12.3.3 pissed me off this morning.
1. The car was on the correct lane to make right turn to freeway ramp about .1 mile ahead. FSD jumped to the right lane (for right turn to the opposite direction of freeway) then cut in another car to jump back to the original lane. I reported the same issue many times earlier but this time I was upset with FSD because the driver of the behind car honked me.

I never sit by when stuff like this begins to happen, I disengage immediately and then my #1 priority is to do whatever it takes for the other (wronged) driver to be able to relax. Sometimes that means gunning it to get away, other times just ceasing all turns and lane changes and being stable at a reasonable speed.

All of this only when possible, of course. But I can only handle 2 or 3 cases where FSD (can we just agree that FSD means FSD(S) by default and could mean something else next year?) really embarrasses me before I become too gun-shy to keep testing that version. So because I enjoy testing, I work really hard to never get into a situation where another driver thinks I'm a total a$$hole. A bit of one, OK, you can't help what FSD does before you manage to disengage, but the last thing I give a hoot about when something like that happens is facilitating the evolution of FSD.

At this stage of the evolution of autonomous driving, I think it would have been doing a service to everyone (and especially we who are in the trenches risking life, limb and rims for the cause) for there to have always been an indicator light or something on the car to indicate the car is at the controls. When I read that Mercedes was forced to do it due to their feeble L3 support, I thought "That's really useful in a lot of ways."

This should be number 1 priority for Tesla to fix.

2. FSD had plenty of time to make right turn from freeway to street when the was a faraway car on the left of the street. Then FSD made right turn when that car was close. It's still OK to turn but why not turn earlier?

I saw lots of cases of poor timing, but also lots more of good or excellent timing, so hopefully more scenarios will migrate toward the good end of that spectrum.

 

[spacecoin]

"would consider autonomous driving to be basically a solved problem.” / Elon Musk, 2016

https://twitter.com/x/status/1778407848583573684

 

[Twiglett]

Easy to see. Have Auto Speed on and when V12 switches to V11 it will change to Max Speed.

I'd rather not enable auto speed and have to correct even more issues just to see when it makes the switch between 11&12

 

[joelkfla]

Still no release notes for that one and all installs (now up to 6) are on CT. Maybe CT finally gets AP....LOL. Don't think this will be the FSDS trial for 8.X cars unfortunately.

What's "CT"?

 

[JulienW]

What's "CT"?

Cybertruck

 

[JulienW]

I'd rather not enable auto speed and have to correct even more issues just to see when it makes the switch between 11&12

Hell I don't know that it makes too much difference. Even on Max V12 seems to drive at whatever speed it decides.

 

[JulienW]

Possible curious behavior. In east ATL there are a few through neighborhood streets that have recently had micro/mini roundabouts installed to slow traffic. Using the same intersections (not enlarged for a roundabout) they put small brick rounds and Yield signs. It is more of a hinderance and a slight right and then left to go straight but does follow roundabout rules. They are very new and not in Navigation Data yet so not sure if it will say the same "enter roundabout and take the 2ed exit" to go straight but I guess it will.

New to me and as coming up on the first in a series was a little concerned since it is a tight "juke" right, then left to go through. But V12 sliced around it like champ. One after another it continued with near perfection and yielding when necessary. Then a car pulled out ahead of me and on the next roundabout that car went straight over the bricks (they only stick up about ½" so no big deal). Oddly my car even a few car lengths back did the exact same thing and drove straight over. The car in front turned off and for all the rest it went back to going around them like it was supposed to.

It was almost as if my car saw the car in front drive over them and "decided" it could do the same. Maybe just a coincidence but it sure seemed my car was "copycatting" the car in front.

 

[Singuy]

Yes, we have been talking about crowd sourced map data for a long time. Elon is determined not to rely on humans, I guess, so doesn’t want that. Or because he thinks it’s not scalable?

The other possibility is that we are wrong and most of these issues are not because of bad maps.

The map data is linked online to a central server and it gets updated constantly. The car would never get into the correct lane for months until one day it does and will consistently do it without any official ota. This tells me it has nothing to do with the fsd software downloaded into the car.

 

[Knightshade]

The map data is linked online to a central server and it gets updated constantly. The car would never get into the correct lane for months until one day it does and will consistently do it without any official ota. This tells me it has nothing to do with the fsd software downloaded into the car.

Yeah- Green posted about this a good while back-- each time you enter a destination in nav it gets realtime data from Tesla about stuff along your route.

 

[Dutchie]

Just drove for the first time on V12 (12.3.4) it did ok.
- wipers are finally working
- it accelerates nicely
- it drives more confident
- no more strange stop's in the middle of the road stops so far
- no more phantom braking?

- Still has a hard time with roundabouts. Is it so hard turning the indicator on when you are entering en exiting a roundabout? I know a lot of people have a hard time with it as well but it is such an easy thing.
- it still has issues with getting into the correct lane. If going straight don’t go into the right lane and leave that lane for cars turning right for instance. It doesn’t do that.