FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[PianoAl]

It is easy to see when navigation is on. Isn't there a turn list and ETA in navigation mode? An additional icon would be redumbnant (as Jake would say).

Not always easy or noticeable when you're looking at the road and not the screen.

I can't think of a good solution to this other than a flashing red screen, which would not be desirable.

I always "End trip" when a mile from home because there's been a change in the road that the car doesn't know about. Most times, just 20 seconds later, I fail to remember that nav is off, and I have to catch the car turning the wrong way.

 

[JB47394]

For one, the driver needs to see, look at, monitor the speedometer ... its on the screen along with many other things.

Sure, that's one, and it's traditionally been placed front and center of the driver's field of view to keep the driver distraction to a minimum. It's also somewhat optional because the driver can see their speed by looking at the trees flashing by. Or comparing their speed to that of traffic around them.

 

[Knightshade]

Sure, that's one, and it's traditionally been placed front and center of the driver's field of view to keep the driver distraction to a minimum. It's also somewhat optional because the driver can see their speed by looking at the trees flashing by. Or comparing their speed to that of traffic around them.

barring a HUD, speedometers are not generally front and center in a drivers field of view... you have to look down to see it (and position your steering wheel not to block it) for a traditional dash.

The Tesla setup you have to look to the side instead of down.

FYI humans have better peripheral vision to the side than they do up/down-- so the Tesla config is actually easier to see without looking away from the road than the traditional setup.

 

[rlsd]

It is easy to see when navigation is on. Isn't there a turn list and ETA in navigation mode? An additional icon would be redumbnant (as Jake would say).

It's not easy to see if it's not shown. I did happen to me. It's a rare situation but I can slip from people's mind. If there is some small icon (Target on for example) near the autopilot wheel and PRND on the upper left corner of the screen then it will help. It's similar to to headlight/fog light on/off icons.

 

[Ben W]

That's great, I'm very glad you got it resolved. As I said in my earlier posts, I think there are quite a few cars in the fleet with this problem, to a greater or lesser degree.

But I also said that Tesla must be well aware of it, so I wasn't too happy to read the next part:

IMO Tesla needs to take this very seriously and do the following things, some can be accomplished now and some for the future:

1. Elevate the issue above the level it already has which is some kind of service bulletin note.
   1. Include it in training materials and flag it using whatever other internal communication methods would be appropriate.
   2. It really doesn't matter if the percentage of seriously affected vehicles is low - the problem is very serious in those vehicles, completely distorting the primary camera view with low sun or bright nighttime lights.
2. Assign a team member to work the problem by finding and or creating a set of training clips that teach the AI to self diagnose this problem. The kind of smearing glare that it creates is not hard to teach. Then the car can notify the driver and notify the factory that cleaning service is required.
3. Create a service tool that every service center should have, to validate the cleanliness of windshield and lenses for the front cameras. I'm thinking a kind of box with a pattern of bright LEDs and perhaps a printed pattern also inside. The box is designed to mate against the upper windshield, and a standard test software routine runs to validate cleanliness, calibration and basic video quality. If it doesn't pass, it requires a cleaning or camera service/replacement.
4. As I said before, redesign the camera housing so that it's easily removable for owner DIY cleaning or service-tech cleaning. A simple squeeze clip arrangement instead of the present situation that requires proper tools and technique just to get a cover off, then unplug connectors and Dismount the mirror and loosen some screws to jiggle the cover off, it's way too hard to maintain the cleanliness right now, and obviously the materials used are prone to outgassing and hazy film deposits.

Everyone should note that some users here report vastly inferior results with the same software that others are quite happy with. I proceed that a fair number of the complaints come from owners of relatively older cars. Of course some of this is down to expectations, personality and so on, but I believe some of it maybe due to hazy/glary front cameras, condensation on pillar cameras, light leaks in repeater cameras and inevitable accumulated gunk on rear cameras.

It's a shame when mundane issues like these get in the way of (what I consider) a remarkable software and data infrastructure effort by Tesla. I hope they consider these suggestions that could improve performance, safety and owner satisfaction.

Absolutely agreed with all of these points. I think the idea of a service tool with a standard bright LED pattern is really important; otherwise it's too easy for the techs to eyeball the camera feed in a low-dynamic-range environment and say, "What's wrong? I don't see the problem!" Redesigning the camera housing to make it easier to get in there and clean (even if still not user-serviceable per se) would be a huge help too, of course.

Ironically, this happened on my newer 2022 Model Y; my older 2017 Model 3 has never had this problem. Whatever the cause, I agree that the FSD computer should be trainable to self-troubleshoot this issue, or even to provide a 0-100% diagnostic of "Camera Quality" for the eight cameras in the service menu, akin to the tire pressure readout. (And with anything below 80% or 90% covered under warranty, if not fixable by cleaning the car exterior.) It's great that FSD is robust to somewhat degraded camera feeds, and it needs to be, but keeping the cameras clean is equally important.

 

[PianoAl]

It is easy to see when navigation is on.

Easy to see, but less easy to notice.

The initial blue-flash nags are even easier to see, but I'll bet everyone has failed to notice them occasionally.

 

[DrGriz]

Haven't seen a lot of this reported although maybe a few mentions, so I am bringing it up to see if this is widespread.

I have found that with both 12.3.3 and 12.3.4 FSDS the car is terrible at slowing down for new speed zones, as well as curves. This is nothing close to what I experienced with 11.x last fall.

For instance, 45->30 mph zone, it took 1/2 mile after the sign showing the change to get to 41 mph, after which it changed back to 45. It sped up when it should. (This was basically a museum complex in the country, two lane road, nobody around so I let it do it's thing). The software saw the 30 mph sign (or the mapping was correct). It showed properly on the screen. So not a mapping issue (that's another story: mapping errors much higher with FSDS than AP, but that's not this).

This is the case slowing from 65->50, 50->35, 35->25, on two lane, non-divided highways both at the outskirts of town and within town. Did not really test on an interstate.

It also doesn't do well slowing down for curves, and as others have mentioned, sometimes crossed double yellow lines on tight inside curves because of it.

It always speeds up when it is supposed to, but often the last 5 mph is achieved quite slowly.

AP does fine with this in it's current iteration.

I don't know how common this is, and certainly, if there were cars in front of me the car tracked the traffic fine. You wouldn't notice it except if no one was in front of you. Maybe I have some sub variant of the software everyone else has.

I do think that if I let it, I'd be going 65 in the middle of a 25 mph zone. I can't see how this is OK, and I am shocked that they put this software with this behavior out for general use. If I hadn't been exposed to FSD previously and this was my only experience I would call BS and refuse to use it.

 

[MP3Mike]

Redesigning the camera housing to make it easier to get in there and clean (even if still not user-serviceable per se) would be a huge help too, of course.

Is it really that difficult? Tesla says that the entire cleaning procedure only takes about 15 minutes. (Exception: It takes almost 30 minutes on the Legacy, pre 2021, Model Xs.)

 

[zoomer0056]

It's also somewhat optional because the driver can see their speed by looking at the trees flashing by.

That's a good substitute for looking at the speedometer. Sorry officer, I misjudged the trees flashing by.

 

[JHCCAZ]

Absolutely agreed with all of these points. I think the idea of a service tool with a standard bright LED pattern is really important; otherwise it's too easy for the techs to eyeball the camera feed in a low-dynamic-range environment and say, "What's wrong? I don't see the problem!"

Exactly the point, it should be a standardized, computer driven evaluation and yet again is a perfect candidate for an ML training project. It turns a very complex evaluation into a score and a standardized service directive. (This would supplement and not replace the real time evaluation of the image quality by the FSD driving NN, which is still needed to feed back to the Mothership, and to flag the need for a service visit.)

I was thinking of the front cameras in particular, but the service tool idea could be extended to the other cameras as well. Now that we can see the pillar camera image in the live camera view on the app, I noticed even here in Southern Arizona that it's prone to internal condensation and image degradation.

Hazing or just dirt on the glass lights up best when the incident light is oblique. It would be an interesting project too develop the LED array, and maybe there should be some associated tubes or optics to provide a variety of angles. Come to think of it, maybe the whole thing could be a single strong light source with a molded optical distribution pattern, a customized variant using the design methods of edge-lit LED panels to get the specialized pattern and angles. (my mind always drifts to the design engineering problem )

Ironically, this happened on my newer 2022 Model Y; my older 2017 Model 3 has never had this problem.

Mine is a very late 2021 Y, and was exhibiting serious degradation by 18 months, notably parked outside in the daily sun.

The camera housing seems to have spray flocking, not just flat black paint on the inner cover. That is some kind of glue mixture and it probably has a stronger chemical off-gassing signature than even the normal automotive interior plastics- which we know are prone to deposit haze over time. I have no idea how the newer cars differ in this respect, but new suppliers and different materials could easily mean that the older cars suffer less less from this problem.

akin to the tire pressure readout.

It's a good idea, maybe even add the camera scores to the tire pressure readout on the screen and on the app. Because it's a new system health status that owners don't traditionally look for it, and that would gently educate and remind them to be aware of it.

As you found with the Tesla techs themselves, people don't think about this and are if anything skeptical when they first hear about it. But when you look at the dash cam images from a hazed camera, at sunset or at night, it's pretty shocking.

 

[JulienW]

It's not easy to see if it's not shown. I did happen to me. It's a rare situation but I can slip from people's mind. If there is some small icon (Target on for example) near the autopilot wheel and PRND on the upper left corner of the screen then it will help. It's similar to to headlight/fog light on/off icons.

How is a small Icon easer to notice than ALL of THIS?

 

[Ben W]

Is it really that difficult? Tesla says that the entire cleaning procedure only takes about 15 minutes. (Exception: It takes almost 30 minutes on the Legacy, pre 2021, Model Xs.)

It was tricky enough that I didn’t feel confident tackling it myself, and the SC estimated $255 in labor to diagnose it. Making it a few steps simpler would probably help on both those fronts.

 

[rentierparasit]

Hi, all --

I'm too lazy to go back and find the discussion about FSD fatalities to respond to, but:

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2022/INCR-EA22002-14496.pdf

Search for FSD. Could someone try to calculate FSD miles for the period in question? I'm not sure that the data this is based on is thought to be all-inclusive.

Someone upthread made a comment about FSD saving some 6-7 lives. One of the problems with Tesla's (lack of) reporting is that there's just no way to conclude that, all you could maybe discuss is FSD + hyper-alert drivers maybe being safer.

Yours,
RP

 

[rlsd]

How is a small Icon easer to notice than ALL of THIS?

View attachment 1042060

Not sure what you meant. How do you see those if you don't set navigation destination? And if icons are not necessary then why bothering showing the big ego, ego slithering path, cars, braking lights, pedestrians and a lot of things totally outside of the road?

 

[JulienW]

Not sure what you meant. How do you see those if you don't set navigation destination? And if icons are not necessary then why bothering showing the big ego, ego slithering path, cars, braking lights, pedestrians and a lot of things totally outside of the road?

[confused]Thought you are asking how to know if a Destination is set and using Navigation. If not a Destination set and Navigation what is this target icon you are asking about supposed to show you?

 

[zoomer0056]

How do you see those if you don't set navigation destination?

Navigation cues (turn list, current nav route, alternate nav route, ETA, %charge at arrival) are only shown when in navigation. So, if you don't see any nav cues, then the car is not in navigation.

Like the turn signals, if you don't see the flashing light or hear them ... they aren't on.

 

[rlsd]

[confused]Thought you are asking how to know if a Destination is set and using Navigation. If not a Destination set and Navigation what is this target icon you are asking about supposed to show you?

Probably gray color if not set and brighter color if set. An icon has two states: on/off

Navigation cues (turn list, current nav route, alternate nav route, ETA, %charge at arrival) are only shown when in navigation. So, if you don't see any nav cues, then the car is not in navigation.

Like the turn signals, if you don't see the flashing light or hear them ... they aren't on.

I am looking for a direct cue, not indirect ones.

It's similar to the headlight icon: gray when light is off, green when light is on.

 

[zoomer0056]

I am looking for a direct cue, not indirect ones.

Good luck with that. Especially for an uncluttered minimalist car.

 

[JulienW]

Probably gray color if not set and brighter color if set. An icon has two states: on/off

I am looking for a direct cue, not indirect ones.

It's similar to the headlight icon: gray when light is off, green when light is on.

If Navigation is set it is 100% Direct and OBVIOUS to all. How you can't see the GIGANTIC Directions Box and Blue Navigation line is beyond my ability to comprehend. Does anyone else understand what I'm missing?

 

[JulienW]

Here is a little near nothing but V12 avoiding a bag in the street this morning.