Get a grip people! What all the complainers are missing.

[McRat]

Honestly, what a disgusting way of trivializing that horrific act! Shame on you!
What the hell has that got to do with car performance figures anyway?

It's an idiom denoting excessive force or a one-sided contest.*

The 4-cylinder Camaro is considered lethargic, but it is cheap and has a nice standard interior. Yet it out performs the base C300 coupe in both handling and acceleration. So I'd guess the Camaro chassis and drive line are roughly the same price level components. Most the difference in price is going to be about the interior.

For some folk 'bling' is critical, so you pay for it. $28,000 extra for a nicer interior is fine for a large car. Not sure about small cars though. If Tesla offers a $28,000 option for a nicer interior for the Model 3, do you really think it would be a big seller?

*Perhaps I should have used "bringing a knife to a gunfight" when describing how bad the $35k M3 is probably going to thump $43k C300, but then all the gun control handwringers would get upset. There are more gun control zealots than folk who know the story of Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, or Nanking. You could argue that Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki were the inevitable outcome of Nanking, Warsaw, London and Rotterdam. Start bombing civilians in an attempt to lower morale, and you can't really put that toothpaste back in the tube. And history will support me as to which countries opened the toothpaste. Warsaw and Nanking were far worse than Dresden since they were 'innocents'. Having done nothing to provoke their enemy, they were carpet bombed just for entertainment value with little military effectiveness. Can't roll tanks through rubble.

 

[rcarpen22]

My problem stems from the very act of Tesla trying too hard to please everyone. The alpha cars at the unveiling were stunning. I understand that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but to me, they have neutered the design in order to make it more mainstream and palatable to folks who would normally buy a camry. No thanks. I don't have a problem with the interior. I probably wouldn't have a big problem with the exterior either, but for the way it suffers by comparison to the original design. I really wish they had just ignored all the haters and kept the original "duckface."

Also, (and I have to qualify that I am a big Elon fan) you can't blame people too much for unreasonable expectations. Elon has made an art form of glorious over-promising. What he delivers is incredible, but it's usually a few steps below what he promised.

And finally, the usual qualification that I love my car and I am really pulling for this company whether I love the final Model 3 design or not...

 

[kzod]

Brands like BMW and mercedes don't try to help the sales of their more expensive cars by taking away features that should still exist on their entry level cars. BMW doesn't try to goose the 8 series sales by making the 3 series cockpit seem like it's missing stuff, they do it by offering more in the 8 series.

WTFridge does that mean? They don't take anything away from the 3 series, and yet the 7 series still gets more? Sounds like 6 of 1, half a dozen of another to me...

 

[ummgood]

Hasn't Elon talked about the need to heat/cool the passenger more directly, rather than the cabin, when dealing with EVs? This would imply air that can be directed exactly where it needs to be. No one can see into the large vent. There are probably fins in there, and the air direction might be controlled via the center screen. Just a guess.

Oh, and I agree with the premise of the OP. The whiny behavior in the forums is getting rediculous (not directed at you, ummgood).

I think so but I am not sold that the air can be 'directed' similar to an existing car. I have seen on these forums people who hate the air directed on them (like my wife) but at the same time people who love the air directed on them (me). In traditional cars I can mess around with the vents to get them exactly where I want them (usually the left one is pointed at my face and the right one is pointed at my chest). If I get in the car after my wife has directed them completely to the left and the right so they don't hit her at all it takes me a matter of minutes to realize this because I am not comfortable so I mess with them again.

In my house I have to have fans running. I love moving air. I have 8 ceiling fans in my house. Every room has one. If I am in that room it is on. My wife doesn't necessarily like them so she puts on a blanket. I have gone so far to take ceiling fans out and replace them with higher CFM fans because I like that much air flow. It also helps with the cooling costs in the summer because I can keep the interior of the house slightly warmer as long as I have moving air. Plus my wife is happier because she would prefer the house even warmer than what I currently set it at.

I am mystified as to why you think that the 3 will not offer separate controls for air flow on the driver side and the passenger side. Every car can recall in the past 40+ years has had such controls.

The 3 vent controls will likely be on the center display, and you spouse will certainly be able to easily reach out and touch them.

I am not sure what you mean. Most cars have three ways of controlling the air. One is the main controls that select temp/fan/recirc... Another is the physical positioning of the fins in the vents. The third is some vents have a flow control that is linear between on/off. On the Model 3 I expect them to have driver and passenger controls for the main system but I am not convinced that they will have any way of controlling the positioning of the vent fins or the amount of flow out of a vent. My wife's van has 3 zones (2 front and 1 rear) and we still like to direct air where we like it.

With that said Tesla could add more complexity and have some motorized way to control the fins but that would add cost and complexity and I don't see that happening. That means their new "ventilation" system means they probably took an average of what most people like. I like to think I am not like most people and I am hoping I will be ok with what they have selected but at the same time it has me concerned like I stated in my previous post.

We do a lot of road trips. I fly all the time for work on long haul flights so when we vacation we drive. I don't want to spend more time in a plane. (On a side topic I'll be in Oslo in a couple weeks so I am excited about being in Bjorn land) My comfort for those hours in the car really matters and I really want to be able to take my Model 3 on some of those road trips. I could see a bad airflow design making it where I'll want to leave the car in the garage and take our Honda Odyssey instead. That is how much having good ventilation means to me.

 

[AustinPowers]

It's an idiom denoting excessive force or a one-sided contest.*

Thanks for the info. I had never heard about that idiom. And I'm certainly not going to open Pandora's box and start discussing the details of various historical incidents. But I still think such a comparison has no place whatsoever in as trivial a context as this thread.

And now, back to Model 3.

 

[AustinPowers]

WTFridge does that mean? They don't take anything away from the 3 series, and yet the 7 series still gets more? Sounds like 6 of 1, half a dozen of another to me...

I think what @slipnslider meant was that for example the Model S offers a HEPA filter.
There is no need for not offering one at least as an option on Model 3 other than to make a point that Model S (and X obviously) is "better".

 

[bxd20]

Agreed, except regards to the 3 costing less than the Bolt. While true if you compare base MSRPs, we all know that's not going to be how things play out when everything is accounted for.

Somewhere in the first half of 2018, Tesla will be out of tax credits. That will start the phase out, which at 50%, will give the Bolt the edge.

You are also not taking into consideration that GM uses dealerships, and for better or worse, all products are discounted from MSRP. There is no haggling at Tesla. At a Chevrolet dealer, right now, today, Bolt buyers are receiving $3000 off.

We also know that a lot of the early 3s are going to be more heavily optioned.

In summary, actual transaction prices for Bolt will always be lower than for the 3. And especially early on, let's say during MY 2018, the difference could be quite substantial. ATP differential incl tax credit could easily be $10,000 in favor of Bolt. That's not small change.

 

[kzod]

I think what @slipnslider meant was that for example the Model S offers a HEPA filter.
There is no need for not offering one at least as an option on Model 3 other than to make a point that Model S (and X obviously) is "better".

Well there is also the cost of developing a new HEPA filter which may not be very profitable for a lower end car where the customers may not be interested in large enough numbers. I can do without HEPA filters. Buyers who value the extra frills should look to the Model S.

 

[kzod]

We also know that a lot of the early 3s are going to be more heavily optioned.

Welcome to the board. Unfortunately the first cars will be the least optioned and therefore cheapest cars being produced. It's very hard to sell heavily optioned cars first when you are holding back on larger batteries, and AWD. The Performance variants won't be around for another year or so.

 

[McRat]

Thanks for the info. I had never heard about that idiom. And I'm certainly not going to open Pandora's box and start discussing the details of various historical incidents. But I still think such a comparison has no place whatsoever in as trivial a context as this thread.

And now, back to Model 3.

I apologize. I need to remember that this is an international website.

While nobody knows at this point, I have a hunch that the Model 3's total driving experience will be superior to the C class and BMW 3 series when true cost is taken into consideration.

 

[Chopr147]

Thanks for the info. I had never heard about that idiom.

I have used it myself to describe something. Like using a hammer to kill a bug. But now that Mcrat brought it up i'm going to do a little educational research : )

Just looking at the Model S vs. MB or BMW as hsitory. The model 3 will be a much better performer than it's competition. Interior quality not withstanding

 

[3Victoria]

Agreed, except regards to the 3 costing less than the Bolt. While true if you compare base MSRPs, we all know that's not going to be how things play out when everything is accounted for.

Somewhere in the first half of 2018, Tesla will be out of tax credits. That will start the phase out, which at 50%, will give the Bolt the edge.

You are also not taking into consideration that GM uses dealerships, and for better or worse, all products are discounted from MSRP. There is no haggling at Tesla. At a Chevrolet dealer, right now, today, Bolt buyers are receiving $3000 off.

We also know that a lot of the early 3s are going to be more heavily optioned.

In summary, actual transaction prices for Bolt will always be lower than for the 3. And especially early on, let's say during MY 2018, the difference could be quite substantial. ATP differential incl tax credit could easily be $10,000 in favor of Bolt. That's not small change.

GM is going to lose their rebate, too, since it applies to all EV sales, and it will likely happen within a quarter of Tesla's loss.

 

[slipnslider]

WTFridge does that mean? They don't take anything away from the 3 series, and yet the 7 series still gets more? Sounds like 6 of 1, half a dozen of another to me...

The 3 series isn't missing anything you expect to see in a car at that price, like the way the M3 lacks an instrument cluster, with the explanation that you have to get the 7 series for that.

 

[flamingoezz]

from the horses mouth:

'and i want to emphasize that even if you buy no options at all, this will still be an amazing car. you will not be able to buy a better car for $35K or even close.'

where in that statement would you glean that elon views hyundai as a benchmark or competitor in any sense? he built the hype train on statements like that and the notorious 'spaceship controls'. he made this seem like it would be somewhere in between a bmw 3 series and a model S. he gave an impression that it would include advanced tech that was not on the market at the time of his statements. this wasn't just invented.

Yeesh! You want to know why Elon feels the need to anti-sell the Model 3? It's because of the delusional personalities that frequent these boards. You guys have built up the model 3 so huge in your minds that he is sure to miss expectations even if he delivered a car with all the features of the current Model S. It's lose lose for him. With expectations among some that the model 3 will be superior in almost all regards, it can't be easy to continue selling the Model S.

Here is what you are missing.
#1. The best affordable EV available for at least the next 3 years. At $35k it is cheaper than the Bolt, i3 and set at a fair premium to the Leaf. At that price point, it will be significantly faster, safer and infinitely better looking. Yes it can and will get more expensive depending on options, but they are either worth the cost or you shouldn't order them.

#2. It was never supposed to beat other entry level cars in old school thoughts of luxury. The Model S doesn't even come close in those regards. It's closer to a Hyundai than a Lexus. The luxury comes from silent, pollution free driving with new luxury features unavailable in other cars. i.e. Control most functions from the display.

#3. Lack of gauges, dials, buttons and air vents is NOT a bad thing. Do you guys decorate your bedrooms like that? Nicest part of the i3 is how relaxing the interior is designed. A HUD would still be appreciated for speed and directions and may end up being available. But it's not a deal breaker.

#4. Finally it's not supposed to be a Model S competitor or replacement. So many people are whining that it won't offer the same space, functionality and premium options of the Model S. Fantastic I say. I waited in line for a 3 series sized Tesla with a reasonable price tag. Yes, I would have preferred a hatchback, but I can appreciate the appeal of more passenger space and comfort. If I were to join the whining, it would be to complain that if anything the car is looking too big!

 

[dhanson865]

Well there is also the cost of developing a new HEPA filter which may not be very profitable for a lower end car where the customers may not be interested in large enough numbers. I can do without HEPA filters. Buyers who value the extra frills should look to the Model S.

Cost of developing a filter? Filters are commodity items no matter if they say HEPA or not. The supplier that sells Tesla the filters in bulk will gladly take the 20 seconds to adjust their filter size for a batch.

OK so they have to put it in the airflow of the AC system, woohoo so hard to design a couple of plastic slots or clips.

Sure it'll take them some non zero amount of time and effort but I just don't see it as anything significantly hard to do that we should be taking about the cost to "develop" a filter for the Model 3.

 

[Laban]

Sure it'll take them some non zero amount of time and effort but I just don't see it as anything significantly hard to do that we should be taking about the cost to "develop" a filter for the Model 3.

The problem might be size rather then cost:

The Model 3 is a smaller car and the fact that the driver (and front passenger) is moved forward (thinner dash) probably doesn't help either.

 

[206er]

haters gonna hate.

 

[daniel]

On the question of the vents, and the possibility of maybe controlling them via the touch screen. How nuts is that? Reach out and push some physical fins around to direct airflow, vs. navigate the touchscreen through a series of menus that finally gets you to where you can tell the car to run some internal motors to move vents that were placed out of reach just to make the car look "futuristic"???

I'm hoping they've done something a bit more sensible than that. For myself, there are times when it's so hot out that I want the cold air blowing right on me because the A/C cannot keep the whole cabin cool, and there are times when I want it directed away from me because the temperature in the cabin is comfortable, but needs a continuous flow to keep it that way.

 

[JeffK]

The problem might be size rather then cost:

The Model 3 is a smaller car and the fact that the driver (and front passenger) is moved forward (thinner dash) probably doesn't help either.

Pretty sure the car is wider than that filter and he's holding it with one hand so it's probably not that wide either.

 

[3Victoria]

from the horses mouth:

'and i want to emphasize that even if you buy no options at all, this will still be an amazing car. you will not be able to buy a better car for $35K or even close.'

where in that statement would you glean that elon views hyundai as a benchmark or competitor in any sense? he built the hype train on statements like that and the notorious 'spaceship controls'. he made this seem like it would be somewhere in between a bmw 3 series and a model S. he gave an impression that it would include advanced tech that was not on the market at the time of his statements. this wasn't just invented.

It is going to be an amazing car. Also, at the time of the first reveal, they expected to have more time before production. The huge response meant the time frame shrank. I expect some of the projected tech had to be curtailed to make the new timeline. Everyone thought that mew timeline was impossible. No dojbt some of the extra tech will come in time.