Happy Birthday AP 2.0

[Bladerskb]

Remember this is coming from the same man that said Level 5 self driving software will be completed and be here december 2017, then 6 months later said it will be here before june 2018.

The guy is clueless.

As one redditor said: "First, it appears that Musk makes these estimates of delivery dates based on a shallow understanding of the technology, and the realities of software development. It makes more sense that the dates are purely for marketing reasons."

 

[BigD0g]

Happy Birthday AP2.0 !!! And you definitely drive like a one year old!

Really wish I would have delayed my purchase until Dec 2017, instead of Dec 2016, I was lead to believe by a video / twitter account things were far more along then they are....

What a crap show...

Would love some real communications from Tesla regarding a roadmap or anything @JonMc

 

[Swift]

Happy Birthday AP2.0 !!! And you definitely drive like a one year old!

Really wish I would have delayed my purchase until Dec 2017, instead of Dec 2016, I was lead to believe by a video / twitter account things were far more along then they are....

What a crap show...

Would love some real communications from Tesla regarding a roadmap or anything @JonMc

I also had planned to delay my purchase until later this year but I believed the Tesla BS about free supercharging ending on 12/31/2016 (which is the day I picked up). I also believed the pitch about AP2 and the Level 5 FSD video. I don't see the latter coming during the expected ownership of my car.

AP2 (and ultimately FSD) should be a class action suit and probably will be. They advertised it as available on 12/31/2016 and it's far from complete. Also, nothing in that announcement said anything about it being "beta" either.

 

[BigD0g]

I also had planned to delay my purchase until later this year but I believed the Tesla BS about free supercharging ending on 12/31/2016 (which is the day I picked up). I also believed the pitch about AP2 and the Level 5 FSD video. I don't see the latter coming during the expected ownership of my car.

AP2 (and ultimately FSD) should be a class action suit and probably will be. They advertised it as available on 12/31/2016 and it's far from complete. Also, nothing in that announcement said anything about it being "beta" either.

It already exists: Tesla Owners Hit Automaker with Class-Action Lawsuit for Botched, Nonfunctional Autopilot and Missing Standard Safety Features | Hagens Berman | National Class Action Litigation Firm based in Seattle, WA

 

[Joe F]

EAP, per the web site when I placed my order:

"expected to complete validation and be rolled out to your car via an over-the-air update in December 2016, subject to regulatory approval."

The features listed for EAP are nowhere near where EAP is today. Although, I have experienced the "automatically change lanes" feature. Sadly it was when lane markings disappeared due to an on or off lane appearing. Or tar lines that that cause the car to make drastic steering "adjustments" at highway speeds. How that little bit of logic eluded, what I have to believe are very smart people at Tesla, totally baffles me.

What I'd like to hear from Tesla is, what regulatory body is preventing Tesla from unleashing the feature list EAP was supposed to ship with in December, 2016? Perhaps @JonMc can update us on this?

And FSD's promise of "All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go."? I guess I have that now, as I tell my car where to go every time it goes brain dead and decides to abruptly steer out of a clearly marked lane. I'd say that was $3000 well spent. Keeps me on my toes and the adrenaline pumping.

Fortunately, AP has gotten better, and keeping your eye's glued to the road, where IMHO they should be with any car you're behind the wheel of is prudent. However, the pace of improvements, especially given the December 2016 roll out, is an egregious deceptive marketing blunder by Tesla. This quite possible will be the last car from Tesla I buy, unless they somehow manage to turn the situation around, soon.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

The features listed for EAP are nowhere near where EAP is today. Although, I have experienced the "automatically change lanes" feature. Sadly it was when lane markings disappeared due to an on or off lane appearing.

I have almost experienced the coveted automated EAP lane change. On a clear day, on a divided highway with good lane markings my AP2 decided to follow the (white-marked, not blue) lead car onto the left-side lane... well, half-way, because somewhere on top of the lane line it fidgeted right-left-right for a while and gave up with a gong.

It is also possible this was an FSD feature, since my car has FSD enabled.

 

[croman]

I too was suckered by Tesla. Bad taste in my mouth. No amount of Kool Aid seems to wash it away.

 

[jimmy_d]

Speaking of AP2 on it's first anniversary - I went out and put a 100 miles on 2017.40.1 today and, at least so far, it feels like an improvement over 38. About two hours of on and off dense urban freeways with fairly heavy mid-day Los Angeles traffic with what seems like fewer disengagements that I would have had on 38. I had maybe 3 where I had to intervene whereas my most recent experience with 38 on this route was maybe 6. It's still not holding the center of the lane as well as the most recent AP1 (not even close, really), but the tendency to lose the lane center on tightish curves and the latter part of S curves seems to have improved a bit.

Anyone else given it a go yet?

 

[agtdDelirium]

Would love some real communications from Tesla regarding a roadmap or anything @JonMc

This. Just communicate, even if it's to say, "Holly crap this is difficult!." A little communication would put out so many smoldering resentments.

 

[conman]

Anyone else given it a go yet?

Yes, I reported on it in the .40 thread. Around town it is even worse than it used to be, especially on winding roads. On the highway however I found it much more stable with far less steering wheel corrections through a long sweeping bend and the best lane change behaviour I've experienced so far.

 

[nnick01]

Yep, I am not happy with the lies either. No more will I buy a Tesla product based on what "is coming soon". I will only depend on what is: here and now.

While I believe that autonomous driving is the future, I don't think Tesla is going to have L3/L4 anytime soon. My dad owns a 2015 (bought Dec 2014) Ford Fusion Platinum. That car has FAR better TACC. Like by a long shot. It also has auto high-beams that are FAR superior to Tesla's. It also has auto-wipers that work perfectly. It has many of the advances that are in a Tesla actually. This is a car that was under $40k out the door. It even has a lane keeping system (not quite autopilot).

I still love my Model X though. My favorite car I have ever owned. I worry about the brand though. You can only get away with this stuff for so long. Also, just about every other car manufacture is going to have an electric car on the road that is worthy soon. Tesla's features will be compared to companies that will deliver on the promised features. Interesting time ahead for Tesla.

 

[KarenRei]

I think Tesla could deal with this easily, and without admitting fault or massive financial liabilities: introducing a feature buyback programme, with generous terms.

If you add a software-upgradeable feature** (such as Autopilot), you can - depending on various factors - get your money back from it. E.g.

* If you return it within a trial period (say, a couple weeks), it's 100% money back.
* The ability to get a refund remains over time, but the value of the refund ticks down for every month in which you utilized the feature (for more than, say, one minute).

Such a programme would protect Tesla a lot more than it would expose them. Some people would take advantage of it, but the vast majority wouldn't. Even including some who grumble about AP2 not living up to their expectations, but use it anyway because it still serves a purpose for them, even though it's not as good as they hoped. But if anyone wanted to raise a lawsuit, the first question I'd expect the judge to ask to the plaintiff would be, "Did you make use of the buyback programme?" and the second would be "Why not?". They'd then need to argue that those refund terms are somehow too onerous, which really, they're not, and have to explain how they're regularly letting their car drive them, with software that they're simultaneously trying to argue is defective. The best I could possibly picture a plaintiff winning, if anything, would be to force Tesla to break out the undelivered features from the delivered ones, set a value on the undelivered features, and refund only those. And I'm sure they could argue down the relative value of the specific undelivered features.

Meanwhile, the mere introduction of such a buyback programme would earn Tesla a groundswell of positive PR - without them ever having to admit that anything was wrong. "It's just customer care. We value our customers' happiness, and this is our latest approach to ensure that everyone is satisfied with their purchase, no matter what their situation...." (insert additional PR-speak here).

** - Could likewise apply to range upgrades on software upgradeable battery packs, although it might be harder to quantify "using" the upgrade. They'd probably want to define the extra range as being at the top of the pack, rather than the bottom, because the bottom of the pack gets used so rarely.

 

[buttershrimp]

Congratulations to the 2 individuals on TMC that have been working so very hard to undermine the glee and enthusiasm of Tesla!

No birthday celebration would be complete without acknowledging your very hard work of 2016 and 2017, logging in everyday.... and you have finally cracked the enthusiasm of the TMC threads.

Bravo! Yay! Everyone is furious about their awesome cars! Yay yay! YAYYYYYY! Hoooooray! Let's all go drive 2015 Ford Fusion Platinums! Yipeee!!!!!! Supercruise! Audi! Woooooo weeeeeeee!!!!!!!

 

[KarenRei]

Congratulations to the 2 individuals on TMC that have been working so very hard to undermine the glee and enthusiasm of Tesla!

No birthday celebration would be complete without acknowledging your very hard work of 2016 and 2017, logging in everyday.... and you have finally cracked the enthusiasm of the TMC threads.

Bravo! Yay! Everyone is furious about their awesome cars! Yay yay! YAYYYYYY! Hoooooray! Let's all go drive 2015 Ford Fusion Platinums! Yipeee!!!!!! Supercruise! Audi! Woooooo weeeeeeee!!!!!!!

Haha, the thing I don't get about that is... okay, their argument is, they bought this car a year ago for a specific feature, and they feel (and apparently have felt for a long time?) that they were robbed and deeply regret their purchase.

Fine. Sell the car. Eat the depreciation (for such a short period of time, not all that much), and you're out of your misery. How can you be that miserable with a vehicle and keep it? If you sold it after 3-6 months, you could buy car worth nearly as much and your agony would end. Why din't you? Why don't you today?

Can someone explain this to me because I'm really not getting where they're coming from.

 

[Draginol]

Haha, the thing I don't get about that is... okay, their argument is, they bought this car a year ago for a specific feature, and they feel (and apparently have felt for a long time?) that they were robbed and deeply regret their purchase.

Fine. Sell the car. Eat the depreciation (for such a short period of time, not all that much), and you're out of your misery. How can you be that miserable with a vehicle and keep it? If you sold it after 3-6 months, you could buy car worth nearly as much and your agony would end. Why din't you? Why don't you today?

Can someone explain this to me because I'm really not getting where they're coming from.

Sure. Not everyone is blasé about eating tens of thousands dollars in depreciation caused by being lied to.

 

[buttershrimp]

Sure. Not everyone is blasé about eating tens of thousands dollars in depreciation caused by being lied to.

I get the angst.... but I think it's mainly the considerable anxiety of waiting.... I don't think the issue is best describe as being duped and misled. But I sure think it FEELS that way to many people... I'm sure I'd feel that way in June of 2018 if I haven't seen a big leap.

It's too big of a long con IMHO to assume that Tesla is lying...especially seeing the video still up while Elon has been muzzled about progress for a time. Karpathy will make you think twice about running off at the mouth.... especially since that dude is all about getting the errors out.

That being said, these types of angry sentiments will get louder and louder IF substantial leaps don't occur. I absolutely think they will.

Even doing something as noble as helping Puerto Rico has a trade off with customers who are anxiously awaiting progress after spending 3k..... people are nervous, and want to be sure there is progress.

Also, there is a trend for owners to vent as having made a large purchase only because of the promise of FSD, which isn't completely accurate, but certainly played a role in our decisions.

Does that entitle someone to getting all their money back? Doubtful... especially when you realize that EAP is very likely much sooner, even if FSD is not for a long long time.

Now, let's say Tesla just seems to fail at FSD along with everyone else because this is basically what that assumption would also mean, because you'd have to convince me that Tesla would fail to get there eventually if they continue to remain solvent..... The more likely scenario is they will need to upgrade hardware for people that bought FSD, or offer them refunds plus interest.

If we base our expectations of Tesla's past behavior, we will see a late delivery of a product that delights and mystifies the world. Don't believe me? How many of us thought the Boring company was super unlikely a year ago? Definitely more of us that we'd care to admit....

Elon has delivered eventually, I'll wait for him to go belly up before I bail.... and still.... I ain't selling my car for nobody.

 

[alcibiades]

I get the angst.... but I think it's mainly the considerable anxiety of waiting.... I don't think the issue is best describe as being duped and misled. But I sure think it FEELS that way to many people... I'm sure I'd feel that way in June of 2018 if I haven't seen a big leap.

It's too big of a long con IMHO to assume that Tesla is lying...especially seeing the video still up while Elon has been muzzled about progress for a time. Karpathy will make you think twice about running off at the mouth.... especially since that dude is all about getting the errors out.

That being said, these types of angry sentiments will get louder and louder IF substantial leaps don't occur. I absolutely think they will.

Even doing something as noble as helping Puerto Rico has a trade off with customers who are anxiously awaiting progress after spending 3k..... people are nervous, and want to be sure there is progress.

Also, there is a trend for owners to vent as having made a large purchase only because of the promise of FSD, which isn't completely accurate, but certainly played a role in our decisions.

Does that entitle someone to getting all their money back? Doubtful... especially when you realize that EAP is very likely much sooner, even if FSD is not for a long long time.

Now, let's say Tesla just seems to fail at FSD along with everyone else because this is basically what that assumption would also mean, because you'd have to convince me that Tesla would fail to get there eventually if they continue to remain solvent..... The more likely scenario is they will need to upgrade hardware for people that bought FSD, or offer them refunds plus interest.

If we base our expectations of Tesla's past behavior, we will see a late delivery of a product that delights and mystifies the world. Don't believe me? How many of us thought the Boring company was super unlikely a year ago? Definitely more of us that we'd care to admit....

Elon has delivered eventually, I'll wait for him to go belly up before I bail.... and still.... I ain't selling my car for nobody.

Thank you for sharing your brainstorming on "shitty defenses of TSLA fraud." 8/10.

 

[alcibiades]

This. Just communicate, even if it's to say, "Holly crap this is difficult!." A little communication would put out so many smoldering resentments.

I imagine the class action has zippered their tweetholes closed.

 

[buttershrimp]

Thank you for sharing your brainstorming on "shitty defenses of TSLA fraud." 8/10.

Holy crap, @alcibiades just emptied his the whole ammo box of disagree into my ass.... can't stop bleeding.... arrrrrgh

 

[alcibiades]

Holy crap, @allcibiades just emptied his the whole ammo box of disagree into my ass.... can't stop bleeding.... arrrrrgh

Well, that's the first true thing you've said all thread!

A stopped bot can be right twice a day, I guess.