dhanson865
Well-Known Member
by driving forward.
Car pushes through air, some air goes around the car but some enters the vents by way of the grill - air ducts - cabin path.
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Heater on/off Button?
- Thread starter gavine
- Start date
by driving forward.
Car pushes through air, some air goes around the car but some enters the vents by way of the grill - air ducts - cabin path.
I'll try to pay attention to that. In most cars the recirculate/fresh-air option can be modified independent of turning the climate control on or off, but in the Tesla it isn't clear that it is possible.
mknox
Well-Known Member
I know we went over this previously where I reported that a Tesla engineer told me they were harvesting waste battery and electronics heat to warm the cabin. This was right around the time the Alpha cars were out, prior to general production. I wonder now if they intended to (based on the patent) but scaled back due to cost considerations? It seems to be a prevalent hypothesis as illustrated from this clip out of the article, and I believe Tesla was "unofficially" telling people it worked this way early on:
Definitely possible. I would guess they found that when it's cold, the waste heat is better used to heat the battery pack (which it can). Also, since there really isn't much of it (it's very efficient!), it wasn't worth the cost.
The only things that can cool/heat in the HVAC assembly are the A/C evaporator (this can only cool/dehumidify), and the PTC electric resistance heater. There is no glycol system in there whatseover, which is what would be needed for this.
We need to let go of the idea that we need to manually control every aspect of the car to make it efficient.
If I was hypermiling because of fear not making it to the next charging spot, I might want to switch everything off that isn't absolutely needed. But that happens maybe once a year. For every other case, I want to have a comfortable ride and enjoy it. I don't care if the heater will use 4% more energy in the first 10 min and that I lost 7 miles of range. I always have enough range left and I set the temperature to whatever feel comfortable to me. I leave it up to Tesla to make it happen in an efficient way. For what we know, that's exactly what happens. The car is very smart about using different methods to heat and cool the car and switches intelligently between those. No need for us to do all of that manually.
At least that's how I think of driving.
If I was hypermiling because of fear not making it to the next charging spot, I might want to switch everything off that isn't absolutely needed. But that happens maybe once a year. For every other case, I want to have a comfortable ride and enjoy it. I don't care if the heater will use 4% more energy in the first 10 min and that I lost 7 miles of range. I always have enough range left and I set the temperature to whatever feel comfortable to me. I leave it up to Tesla to make it happen in an efficient way. For what we know, that's exactly what happens. The car is very smart about using different methods to heat and cool the car and switches intelligently between those. No need for us to do all of that manually.
At least that's how I think of driving.
I've found that for climate control efficiency, the computer can do a better job than I can. The reason is that it can concentrate on the correct temperature level. It's different for moving the vehicle. Automated controls always accelerate and decelerate way too fast for efficiency. They also can't anticipate hills and stops.
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
automated climate control can't anticipate hills (shadows) and stops in sunlight. Automated climate controls are always geared towards the whiners that say it doesn't cool or heat fast enough instead of being tuned for efficiency.
You have a point, I'm just saying it applies to the other side as well.
mknox
Well-Known Member
While I agree with the sentiment, the fact is that the automatic HVAC, in it's current form, is just not working. My Model S has never been as good as past cars I've owned with automatic HVAC systems, but v7 has just broken everything, plain and simple.
It's not a matter of efficiency, but one of safety and comfort. If I just leave it on Auto, my windows will quite frequently fog over, and it takes a long time to warm up the cabin. Then when it does, the temperature will start dropping to uncomfortable levels. If I adjust the Fresh/Recirculate, Vent Controls and Fan Speed manually, I can keep some semblance of comfort and prevent window fogging completely. And I do have to start bumping the temperature controls from an initial 72 F setting to about 78 F after a half hour or so just to keep the cabin temperature constant.
clostridium
Member
Resurrecting an old thread:
It still would be nice to have the ability to independently turn off the heat just like you can with the A/C. Yes I know that you can hack it by turning the temp to LO and disabling the A/C but that's a multi step process. It's puzzling they allowed us to control the A/C but not heat considering the greater energy penalty for heating.
Basically I just want the ability to have fresh outside air brought into the cabin that is neither heated or cooled and can be routed to the face or feet or both vents without having to click on multiple options. Like in an old school car.
It still would be nice to have the ability to independently turn off the heat just like you can with the A/C. Yes I know that you can hack it by turning the temp to LO and disabling the A/C but that's a multi step process. It's puzzling they allowed us to control the A/C but not heat considering the greater energy penalty for heating.
Basically I just want the ability to have fresh outside air brought into the cabin that is neither heated or cooled and can be routed to the face or feet or both vents without having to click on multiple options. Like in an old school car.
Yes a button "vent air only" would be awesome. Turn everything off, just fan.
beachmiles
Member
I wish I had the luxury of not caring about range like you. Unfortunately people with no home or workplace charging like myself DO care about conserving range, especially with an 80 mile daily commute. Not to mention wasting electricity and putting little tiny bits of unneeded usage on your battery. We're not talking about a small LED light here.
Always fun to get a "Disagree" on a 5 yr old post...
So, @beachmiles , given the S uses the electric PTC heater as it's sole source of cabin heat, and you've disagreed with my premise that adjusting the temp to request cabin heat should engage that PTC heater, what do you suggest the car should do instead?
beachmiles
Member
You have to live in a hot environment or be sensitive to heat to understand my plight, and realize why I want a heater off toggle button. Also not having home or workplace charging with a 80 mile daily commute makes any energy waste not desired.
Here in LA it tends to be 85 degrees in the sun in the summer. Inside my shaded underground parking in the morning my car might be cold soaked to 65. My temperature is set to 72 (I'd go with 69/70 if I didn't care about range) with the AC on from the drive home. When I start up and drive in the morning it turns on the heat to get to my 72 setpoint. Granted this is a short bit of heat and power used, but it's heat I don't want because the instant the car gets in the sun it's going to start heating for free real quick.
So the only way I can make it work they way I want with no way to turn off heat is by manually turn the AC off and putting the temp to LO in the morning, and after 5 minutes change the temp back to 72 and turn the AC on. Gets to be lot of button pushes every morning
Here in LA it tends to be 85 degrees in the sun in the summer. Inside my shaded underground parking in the morning my car might be cold soaked to 65. My temperature is set to 72 (I'd go with 69/70 if I didn't care about range) with the AC on from the drive home. When I start up and drive in the morning it turns on the heat to get to my 72 setpoint. Granted this is a short bit of heat and power used, but it's heat I don't want because the instant the car gets in the sun it's going to start heating for free real quick.
So the only way I can make it work they way I want with no way to turn off heat is by manually turn the AC off and putting the temp to LO in the morning, and after 5 minutes change the temp back to 72 and turn the AC on. Gets to be lot of button pushes every morning
I know exactly what you mean! There is another solution that works easier and no button pushing at all.
First, keep the HVAC to all auto. Set up your right thumb scroll wheel (on the steering wheel) to adjust the temperature setting. When you get in the car parked underground and cold, adjust the temperature down. For this idea to work, you have to completely ignore that this number is temperature. Disconnect the number you see from it's intended meaning and just see it as an arbitrary number. So you get in the car and adjust the number down. If the car starts heating and you feel warm air coming out, adjust the number further down. Again, ignore what exactly the number is, just adjust it down 2 or 3 clicks from what it was. If it comes out too cold, adjust it up a little. A good indicator is also the fan speed. If the fan is blowing strong, adjust the number up (or down) to where the fan slows down. This way you know the car will neither use the heater nor AC much (or at all). Once you drive outside into the sun and the car warms up, adjust the number (probably down) so it feels comfortable.
Basically what you are doing is you adjust the entire HVAC system with a single dial to match whatever the cabin's state is and thus prevent it from using unnecessary energy. It only works if in your head you do not see it as an actual temperature. Once you see the 'temperature' setting as just a number and any adjustment is only a relative adjustment to make it comfortable, then you don't have to go through all the buttons and adjust all aspects by hand all the time.
I think that is actually the root of most issues people have with climate control systems. They are fixated on a specific temperature that they believe is comfortable. There are so many other factors that play into what makes you feel warm or cold at the exact same air temperature. If people could just let go of that fixed number they believe in.
Here are a few things that make me feel warmer even though the temperature has not changed: drinking coffee, a guy cutting my off, being late to an appointment while driving, right after I had Mexican food, a phone call with my wife.
Here are a few things that make me feel cooler at the same temperature: being tired, wearing flip flops, wearing shorts, after eating ice cream, on long rides, driving at night, after seeing my bank statement.
So... you don't want the car to heat, when you've set the setpoint above current interior ambient temp?
Again, I don't know what you expect the car to do when you ask it for heat, and it gives it to you.
Why would a button to toggle the heater off be any less trouble than using the button to toggle the HVAC system off? Or adjusting the set point?
beachmiles
Member
99.9% of the time I don't want any heat from the AC system. And if it's 60-72 outside I want the fan on but the heat off if I leave it set to 72. I drive home with it 85 degrees outside with the AC set to 72. I turn the car in the morning it's 60 degrees outside and the AC is still set to 72. I do not want the heat to come on in this case, just the vents.
If I had a heater off toggle button this would make my setup much cleaner, and not require me to constantly manually adjust the setpoints. It's basically the same function that the nest thermostat has. You set a low end range where you want the heat to come on, in my case this would be 60. And you set a high point where you want the AC to come on, in my case this is 72. And the ability to have the fan/vent in all cases.
Wyomingtim
Member
Sorry, that cracked me up! Cold soaked concerns for me means single digits or below zero.I don’t see any appreciable range impact at 65 degrees. But I readily admit I held off on buying my Tesla until the 100 kw battery was available!
" I don't want the car to do what I ask it to do."
beachmiles
Member
Sounds like you are locked in an endless loop of the car works this way and that's the way it works, no more options available period.
I am asking for a feature that the car currently doesn't support, and my hunch is it's a pretty simple code update to offer a heater on off toggle button. Seems like others want this as well.
Feature Request: Separate heating and cooling temperatures for the climate control : TeslaLounge
Sounds like you have a short memory.
You were the one who initially waded in disagreed with me a couple of days ago, in my 5-yr old reply to @gavine (not you), when he said:
and I asked:
So you seem to be under the impression I'm arguing something I wasn't, My point remains: there's a sole source of cabin heat, the PTC heater. If you turn up the heat, where else did @gavine expect the heat to come from. Clearly he wanted heat. It was chilly, and he cranked the temp up... what was the car supposed to do?
So, seeing as you disagreed with that question, I have to take you at your word that's what you are talking about.
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