How common is ghosting?

[AnxietyRanger]

Well, I mentioned about ghosting to my wife today. It took me some time explaining about what the heck the thing is. Then, I asked her if she has noticed anything like that in our X. She laughed it off and said I'm joking. She still couldn't believe me this is a real issue, and people are dealing with it .

I appreciate your story. Some musings from that:

You wife's reaction kind of underlines the apples to oranges difficulty of discussing any screen issues on the internet or in person. Some people are genuinely simply not interested or sensitive to such issues at all, to the point of even finding people who are kind of ridiculous.

It is very understandable and ignorance certainly is a bliss (many husbands are blissfully ignorant of things their wives stress about too). But very hard to come to any scientific-minded findings on issues with such participants in the data gathering process, though.

From that perspective, it is usually best to ignore data points from people who refuse to see the issue at all. That does not mean ignore all who say it isn't an issue (if enough say so, maybe there is something to that), but understand that a portion does say it ignorantly and that portion is best ignored.

 

[Maximus-MX]

From that perspective, it is usually best to ignore data points from people who refuse to see the issue at all. That does not mean ignore all who say it isn't an issue (if enough say so, maybe there is something to that), but understand that a portion does say it ignorantly and that portion is best ignored.

Yes, I agree if there is an outlier in a data, that data point can be a candidate for deletion. But in this case, I would be careful to do that because that data point is not isolated. Look at the poll up here. Yes, it's not a "scientific" poll (n=54), but about 43% of respondents not noticing it says something.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Yes, I agree if there is an outlier in a data, that data point can be a candidate for deletion. But in this case, I would be careful to do that because that data point is not isolated. Look at the poll up here. Yes, it's not a "scientific" poll (n=54), but about 43% of respondents not noticing it says something.

I am not ignoring that, of course. But the thing is, the "ignorant class" is not an outlier in these kinds of conversations, it can even be a majority. I mean, how else could a product with a defect sell so much - because the defect does not matter to most people. Go to some home theater forum and discuss light bleed or panel misalignment and 99% of regular people couldn't care less and wouldn't see a thing wrong, but the enthusiasts do...

I have followed this topic closely and I am not seeing the kind of messaging I would expect there to be if really some of the windshields were free of the ghosting issue. It simply seems more like the people not seeing it are not seeing it, not that it isn't there. I would welcome someone who knows the ghosting issue intimately saying they have seen a car free of the issue, that would be something. Photographs of that windshield at night with traffic heading the car's way without ghosting even better...

Hey, I can be wrong, but this is how it reads to me so far. I find it most likely that all Model X windshields have ghosting. It is simply the way these laminated glass layers behave in certain situations. Barring a clearly new or different batch of revised glass, I expect it to stay that way...

 

[Whisky]

All angled windshields have ghosting. It's not the ghosting that's annoying, it's the glare. Glare is very annoying! With angled glass, glare is increased (also a function of thickness, etc..)

For the most part, for most people, glare isn't noticeable because it's irrelevant and our brains do our best to ignore irrelevant stimulus. Sometimes, though, irrelevant details fester in our brains. It happens to all of us. For some people it's ghosting, for others it's bad grammar, others still it's objects that aren't symmetrical.

We all have our thing. I do. Ghosting might be your thing, and that sucks, but it's not everyone's thing. I noticed ghosting today briefly when I looked for it. It disappeared the moment I forgot I was looking at it. I took one of the images and removed the 'ghost' image. The real problem, though, is the glare. Glare sucks. Ghosting makes it worse.

 

[Yggdrasill]

It can't just be the angled glass that does it. My other car (Hyundai Elantra) has zero ghosting, and I don't think there's really any difference in the angle of the glass. There must be something with the thickness/quality of the glass, the lamination method or surface treatment that results in such ghosting.

 

[Yggdrasill]

I think I'll try to take some pictures of the ghosting later today.

 

[Yggdrasill]

Apparently I suck at getting things in focus when they are moving and I'm using a lot of zoom. I took a bunch of pictures, and only two showed the ghosting clearly:

Here you see a very strong ghosting of the reflection of the sun on the spoiler. (The sun was behind me.)

In this one, you can see it quite clearly on the lower lights. You have a fainter version of them a little above them, where you can make out more detail of the inner workings of the light. This is a pretty typical ghosting that I get on all non-LED/xenon headlights and such.

 

[Yggdrasill]

This one also came out okay:

You can see the LED DLRs being ghosted.

 

[vkathuria]

Mine has ghosting as well. It is tolerable and I am learning to live with it. Really hoping Tesla is able to come out with a fix though.

 

[Peteybabes]

ok now, i'm OCD, but not that OCD!!!

 

[EV-lutioin]

I didn't notice any ghosting at all and was happy as a clam... until I read about it on this forum, and now I see it all the time @ night, tail lights.
Thanks, Tesla Motors Club!

Ghosting is like this famous image. Once you see the old lady, it is hard to see the young girl again.

 

[Yggdrasill]

ok now, i'm OCD, but not that OCD!!!

The pictures don't really do it justice, it's even more noticeable. And the ghosting during the day is nowhere near the ghosting at night.

It's not as if it's just a glimpse of ghosting either, it's perfectly constant. And they move. As approaching cars move closer, the ghosting seems to come closer and closer to the original source, until they merge into one.

If I had to choose between the large windshield with ghosting and a normal windshield without ghosting, I think I would choose the current windshield. But it's not a no-brainer. The ghosting is very annoying.

 

[verygreen]

This is how mine looks during the day (a random sample I happened to have around):

 

[vandacca]

All angled windshields have ghosting. It's not the ghosting that's annoying, it's the glare. Glare is very annoying! With angled glass, glare is increased (also a function of thickness, etc..)

For the most part, for most people, glare isn't noticeable because it's irrelevant and our brains do our best to ignore irrelevant stimulus. Sometimes, though, irrelevant details fester in our brains. It happens to all of us. For some people it's ghosting, for others it's bad grammar, others still it's objects that aren't symmetrical.

We all have our thing. I do. Ghosting might be your thing, and that sucks, but it's not everyone's thing. I noticed ghosting today briefly when I looked for it. It disappeared the moment I forgot I was looking at it. I took one of the images and removed the 'ghost' image. The real problem, though, is the glare. Glare sucks. Ghosting makes it worse.

Sorry @Whisky, but I respectfully disagree with you. I was going to simply hit the "Disagree" button on your post, but I'm not sure if that has a negative connotation to some people, and I didn't want that to happen.

With ghosting, what is happening is a secondary (and even tertiary) imagine is being produced. A traditional windshield is made up of a plastic layer laminated between two panes of glass. Ghosting occurs when light hits a boundary layer (of 2 different materials) and part of it is refracted and reflected within the material. This can cause a 2nd image to be formed.

In a typical windshield, that middle layer is too thin to cause a secondary image with any meaningful separation between the main and second image. The thicker the layer, the greater the distance between the two images. There are many parts to this issue:

• One is refraction (the angle that light is bent). You will always get refraction when light travels through one medium to another. The choice of materials can change the overall refraction index (add up the individual refraction index of each material), but basically the greater the refraction, the more serious the ghosting can be

• Reflection. Under the correct conditions, part of the light can be reflected back from the inside of the windshield, to the outside and then back into the vehicle, causing the ghosted image. Because of refraction, the 2nd image is offset from the first. Reducing the reflection would help with ghosting. If you look carefully in the above image, you can see a portion of the light being reflected downwards.
• Angle. Of course the angle of the incoming light also plays a factor. If the windshield was 90º (bad for aerodynamics), there wouldn't be any refraction, so any light being reflected would be superimposed onto the original image (no separation). Also, with a windshield with many complex angles, it can cause the image separation to change as you approach the light source, due to the change in angle of the light source and the change in angle of the windshield where the light strikes.
• Distance. The further away the light source, the more uniform (parallel) the light rays become which makes the secondary image more clear. As the source gets closer, you get to see more variation in the light rays reaching your eyes and the ghosting becomes more fuzzy and less noticeable.
• Light Source. If you have a light source that is producing very sharp images (eg. LED tail lights or light from a laser), then that light is extremely uniform (parallel rays) and the image is super sharp. Since the primary image is super sharp, the secondary image will also be sharp and extremely noticeable.
• Time of Day. While there is ghosting during the day too, it's harder to see because there is so much light from everywhere. At night, there is a huge contrast between street lights and the black sky, which allows the ghosting to stand out
• Tint. While tint can't eliminate ghosting, it can significantly reduce it by restricting how much light is transmitted/reflected. It should dampen the effect.

I don't know the composition of Tesla's windshields, but its a new formulation that's also being used in other high-end vehicles. It likely has additional or a thicker layer between the two glass panes (possibly to further reduce UV light, provide better acoustic dampening and/or use more environmentally-friendly materials). It's this increase in thickness that's likely the primary cause of ghosting. I just don't know if it's by design or due to a less than perfect manufacturing process.

It's entirely possible that with tighter manufacturing controls, the sandwich can be produced more tightly, which should significantly reduce the ghosting. I'd be surprised if it's by design, since this is a well understood phenomena that should have been considered by the engineers.

 

[Yggdrasill]

View attachment 232831
In this one, you can see it quite clearly on the lower lights. You have a fainter version of them a little above them, where you can make out more detail of the inner workings of the light. This is a pretty typical ghosting that I get on all non-LED/xenon headlights and such.

It occurs to me that the headlights are also ghosted on this picture. At first I thought the bright spots on the hood of the car were reflections from the sun, but the curvature of the hood doesn't fit. You also have a beam of light connecting the headlights to the bright spots, and the distance between the headlights and the bright spots is consistent with the lower lights and their ghosting.

This is part of why I don't like the ghosting - they make it hard to determine what's what. Especially when you have a lot of cars with all sorts of reflections and lights, it can be hard to make out how many vehicles there are. Is it 2 vehicles or is it 4 vehicles? It can be hard to tell when you see eight headlights... (Again, especially at night.)

 

[vandacca]

IMO the biggest problem with ghosting is headaches. For some people, their brain will be constantly trying to focus and rectify the multiple images, creating a lot of eye strain.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Thank you for the very thoughtful post(s), @vandacca. Appreciate them.

I don't know the composition of Tesla's windshields, but its a new formulation that's also being used in other high-end vehicles. It likely has additional or a thicker layer between the two glass panes (possibly to further reduce UV light, provide better acoustic dampening and/or use more environmentally-friendly materials). It's this increase in thickness that's likely the primary cause of ghosting. I just don't know if it's by design or due to a less than perfect manufacturing process.

It could also be a safety feature. Thicker laminated glass to compensate for a lack of a forward bar between the A pillars.

 

[croman]

I was seriously considering an X in 2-3 years but I hate my eyeglass ghosting, it would drive me absolutely bonkers to have it in my car. I'm blissfully ignorant if my S has this and I'd like to remain so.

BTW, I never saw the young woman. Its all old crone to me.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I was seriously considering an X in 2-3 years but I hate my eyeglass ghosting, it would drive me absolutely bonkers to have it in my car. I'm blissfully ignorant if my S has this and I'd like to remain so.

I don't think the issue exist in Model S (at this level anyway). Its windshield is different, nor is it as (unnecessarily) ambitious as the Model X one...

BTW, I never saw the young woman.

FWIW, she's looking away from the viewer.

 

[Peteybabes]

I don't think the issue exist in Model S (at this level anyway)...

it's the rear window on the S it squishes everything out of proportion.