If you fast charge, Tesla will permanently throttle charging

[stopcrazypp]

Tesla also didn't guarantee a particular acceleration from 60-90 mph. However you test drive and purchased a car you believed would not be purposefully degraded. If Tesla decides to limit power delivery such that going from 60 to 90 mph takes 20 seconds, is that OK?

They did promise a quarter mile time though, so if it takes 20 seconds to reach 60 to 90 mph they will break that promise (in an obvious/unreasonable way; I do realize there is still the 10.9 argument going, but then the times are a lot closer there).

 

[AnxietyRanger]

They did promise a quarter mile time though, so if it takes 20 seconds to reach 60 to 90 mph they will break that promise.

Well, they already broke the quarter mile promise, so what difference does it make...

 

[stopcrazypp]

Well, they already broke the quarter mile promise, so what difference does it make...

Lol, I knew someone would take issue with the 10.9 thing, so I edited my comment, but apparently too late.

 

[supratachophobia]

I know people are hung up on the, "it's only 1% of owners". But that's 2000 current owners and another 5k soon-to-be model 3 owners.

 

[scottf200]

I know people are hung up on the, "it's only 1% of owners". But that's 2000 current owners and another 5k soon-to-be model 3 owners.

What percentage of those have ever had a battery operated cell phone or battery powered tool or any other battery powered device? 99.99% Did they not realize that batteries in anything they buy have degradation in several ways and there are consequences to that. Seriously, why is everyone surprised by this ... even non-EV enthusiast understand battery powered things age (time and accelerated usage) and there are consequences. We want Tesla to protect the battery for longevity and safety. It is extremely hard to perfectly age test batteries (time and accelerated usage).

The fringe cases are people pushing their cars to the 'limits' (range and/or perceived charging times) ... then they are surprised. There is a common sense to all this as well. Blaming Tesla is their scapegoat. Batteries age and have consequences. I guess these fringe cases were hoping to push the limits and try to get a free battery replacement. If they had ANY concerns they should not have bought the car.

Yes, I realize I went a little overboard on this post but take some responsibility for common sense battery aging issues.

[update]Plus we are talking 5ish minutes for these fringe cases... [/update]

 

[artsci]

Is this another example of a service center getting it wrong?

Based on my personal experience I think so. My car has 60K plus miles and when I supercharge there's been no reduction in the rate of charge.

 

[suraj1194]

Mine is <1 year old and has ~25K miles on it and still gets 95KW charging rate at local SCs, which is about the max for the 75KWh battery. Only the 85/90/100 batteries can sustain 100+ KW .

 

[supratachophobia]

What percentage of those have ever had a battery operated cell phone or battery powered tool or any other battery powered device? 99.99% Did they not realize that batteries in anything they buy have degradation in several ways and there are consequences to that. Seriously, why is everyone surprised by this ... even non-EV enthusiast understand battery powered things age (time and accelerated usage) and there are consequences. We want Tesla to protect the battery for longevity and safety. It is extremely hard to perfectly age test batteries (time and accelerated usage).

The fringe cases are people pushing their cars to the 'limits' (range and/or perceived charging times) ... then they are surprised. There is a common sense to all this as well. Blaming Tesla is their scapegoat. Batteries age and have consequences. I guess these fringe cases were hoping to push the limits and try to get a free battery replacement. If they had ANY concerns they should not have bought the car.

Yes, I realize I went a little overboard on this post but take some responsibility for common sense battery aging issues.

[update]Plus we are talking 5ish minutes for these fringe cases... [/update]

I agree with parts of what you said. There is (1) obvious common sense in the real world, then there is (2) useful info you learn along the way through EV ownership, and then there is (3) the stuff you wouldn't know unless Tesla told you. I'm placing this DC fast-charge limit somewhere between 2 and 3, with a heavy lean towards 3.

As technical as I am, I still don't understand C-rate's and the exact effect rapid charging has on batteries (the car takes care of the extra heat so it's no big deal right?). Battery degradation was something that Tesla was very upfront about in the sales process. What they weren't upfront about is this little nugget about supercharging. Maybe they didn't know about it, maybe they thought "what's five minutes?", but it should have gone down like this prior to an owner getting a note on their service paperwork:

-------------------------------------
Tesla Blog Post, Date: <sometime before the poo hit the fan>

"Tesla owners continue to enjoy inexpensive, and even free, long distance travel over the supercharging network worldwide. And the network is growing still every day so that more and more owners can travel to more and more places. Our supercharger network is the fastest DC charging infrastructure available to the public. And it has been designed with the future in mind as batteries continue to evolve and advances. Superchargers have the ability to "fuel" a Tesla at rate up to 135kwh, but at this time, current battery technology has kept these higher rates just out of reach for the time being. However, it is not uncommon for owners to regularly see charging speeds as high as 115kwh for short periods of time at the beginning of a charging session!"

"As the ownership base grows, so does the amount of data regarding how Tesla products perform in the real world. Tesla is constantly striving to analyze that data to make Tesla products, and by extension, the ownership experience even better. Something our engineers have discovered from this data, is that excessive supercharging has the potential to shorten the life of the lithium ion batteries used in Tesla vehicles. When we look at the data to define "excessive" we see that DC fast charging sessions numbering in the several hundreds within a short period of time are to blame. Thankfully, this usage case is at the very extreme of actual owner usage scenarios. In fact, less than half of 1% of total owners would ever see charging activity like this!"

"As a way to mitigate/eliminate premature shortening of the battery life, Tesla has enacted throttling protocols through the vehicle software so that owners continue to have a great experience with their cars for many years to come. Affected owners may see maximum charge rates of 90kwh during charging sessions, but rest assured this only adds, at most, 5min of additional charge time during a charging session. We hope that owners will understand that these precautions are for the good of the health of their vehicle and not a way for Tesla to somehow "short-change" them. If you still have serious concerns over this new policy, please reach out to me and I'll try to answer them to the best of my ability."

Sincerely, <company scapegoat>
-----------------------------------------------

And that's how you do that.

 

[JRP3]

I know people are hung up on the, "it's only 1% of owners". But that's 2000 current owners and another 5k soon-to-be model 3 owners.

I think the statement was something like "less than 1%", and there is no reason to assume that will apply to the Model 3, and/or that they won't have some disclaimer addressing the issue ahead of time.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I think the statement was something like "less than 1%", and there is no reason to assume that will apply to the Model 3, and/or that they won't have some disclaimer addressing the issue ahead of time.

Right, given the major cell and pack architecture change, we can't assume what applies to Model S/X applies to Model 3. We aren't even sure what kind of DC charging surprises Tesla might have up their sleeve (every time the Model 3 was supercharged, it was under a cover).

 

[Candleflame]

That doesn't make much sense -- and the charge rate for most of a Chademo session on today's equipment with today's batteries is a lot lower than 50kW, more like 30-40kW. An HPWC on 277V 3-phase is 22kW...

this isnt necessarly true. there is some evidence that faster charging rates lead to less batteryheat over time and therefore preserve the battery better. The argument against it is ofc that Tesla cools the battery during charging.

 

[wcfinvader]

Started at 20 rated miles ended with 230 rated miles after 45 minutes supercharging at the Council Bluffs Supercharger. We do have a new battery but this is the typical supercharge times we've seen since adopting our Classic S. Over 100,000 miles on ours to btw.

 

[FlatSix911]

Not much left to debate ... Tesla explains why it limits Supercharging speed after high numbers of DC charges

In a statement, Tesla explains that it is a software limitation to optimize for the best possible owner experience that’s within the limits of physics. Here’s the statement in full:

“The peak charging rate possible in a li-ion cell will slightly decline after a very large number of high-rate charging sessions. This is due to physical and chemical changes inside of the cells. Our fast-charge control technology is designed to keep the battery safe and to preserve the maximum amount of cell capacity (range capability) in all conditions. To maintain safety and retain maximum range, we need to slow down the charge rate when the cells are too cold, when the state of charge is nearly full, and also when the conditions of the cell change gradually with age and usage. This change due to age and usage may increase total Supercharge time by about 5 minutes and less than 1% of our customers experience this.

 

[JRP3]

The peak charging rate possible in a li-ion cell will slightly decline after a very large number of high-rate charging sessions.

That's great, except they didn't tell that to people who specifically asked about any harm from frequent high-rate charging, and instead told them to fast charge as much as they wanted.

 

[Candleflame]

That's great, except they didn't tell that to people who specifically asked about any harm from frequent high-rate charging, and instead told them to fast charge as much as they wanted.

yap. this.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Not much left to debate ... Tesla explains why it limits Supercharging speed after high numbers of DC charges

In a statement, Tesla explains that it is a software limitation to optimize for the best possible owner experience that’s within the limits of physics. Here’s the statement in full:

“The peak charging rate possible in a li-ion cell will slightly decline after a very large number of high-rate charging sessions. This is due to physical and chemical changes inside of the cells. Our fast-charge control technology is designed to keep the battery safe and to preserve the maximum amount of cell capacity (range capability) in all conditions. To maintain safety and retain maximum range, we need to slow down the charge rate when the cells are too cold, when the state of charge is nearly full, and also when the conditions of the cell change gradually with age and usage. This change due to age and usage may increase total Supercharge time by about 5 minutes and less than 1% of our customers experience this.

I thought you posted a new statement. This is just quoting the same statement that was posted in this forum a long while back.

 

[Max*]

Not much left to debate ... Tesla explains why it limits Supercharging speed after high numbers of DC charges

In a statement, Tesla explains that it is a software limitation to optimize for the best possible owner experience that’s within the limits of physics. Here’s the statement in full:

“The peak charging rate possible in a li-ion cell will slightly decline after a very large number of high-rate charging sessions. This is due to physical and chemical changes inside of the cells. Our fast-charge control technology is designed to keep the battery safe and to preserve the maximum amount of cell capacity (range capability) in all conditions. To maintain safety and retain maximum range, we need to slow down the charge rate when the cells are too cold, when the state of charge is nearly full, and also when the conditions of the cell change gradually with age and usage. This change due to age and usage may increase total Supercharge time by about 5 minutes and less than 1% of our customers experience this.

This was posted about 40 pages back in this thread by JonMc.

 

[Kant.Ing]

I agree with parts of what you said. There is (1) obvious common sense in the real world, then there is (2) useful info you learn along the way through EV ownership, and then there is (3) the stuff you wouldn't know unless Tesla told you. I'm placing this DC fast-charge limit somewhere between 2 and 3, with a heavy lean towards 3.

I also think it's more 3.

One way or the other, we EV owners still have to trust their manufacturers in their battery management algorithms and batteries as we have been educated that they're complicated and hazardous and clandestine like NSA. However the manufacturers should not change the spec through the ownership and affect the values or usage models, for example down the road, maybe the fleet will hit more limiter(s) and Tesla then reveals something confusing like 90kw for your 100 batteries, or 50kw for 70 batteries. And what if some manufacturers recycle the batteries to put into new cars, and manage them through secret BMS recipes to crank out good-looking performance during the warranty period, do we not care? Maybe we should just face it, the products so far are all beta and X/S/3 owners are all early adopters signed up for big simpulations, and AP is beta and BMS too! If you're the 1% something or life threatened genealogy, you should feel special and go get yourself a lottery ticket if possible!

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I guess these fringe cases were hoping to push the limits and try to get a free battery replacement. If they had ANY concerns they should not have bought the car.

Yes, that's the only solution... if you have concerns, don't buy the car. Great message to send. You should work for Tesla.

 

[supratachophobia]

That's great, except they didn't tell that to people who specifically asked about any harm from frequent high-rate charging, and instead told them to fast charge as much as they wanted.

Exactly this. The salespeople didn't know, and Tesla corporate didn't tell them.