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No time to go through this whole thread but I'm wondering if degraded mode is due to charging to 100% every time. I got a warning about possible battery degradation the first time I charged to 100% and left it plugged in (240 volt at home). I set it to 80-90% and no more warning.
According to Tony Williams' testing, at least the original dual chargers were firmware limited to 10kW, so you could draw 40A up to 250V and 36A at 277V.
So you're right, you can only slightly exceed the nominal 19kW by using a single leg of a 480/3ph service: you'll get 20kW, not the 22kW I said above.
No, the degradation that would happen from too frequent charges to 100% (and worse, leaving it there) is a decrease in capacity, meaning range. The cars that have max supercharger power decreased is to avoid similar damage to the battery, not the result of it.
By the way, you don't get the warning about 100% charging until it's left at that setting for three days. It's for people who set it to 100% for a trip and forget to set it down afterwards.
boonedocks
MS LR Blk/Blk 19”
To add to what TexasEV said, charging to 100% and driving the car within an hour or two of it finishing charge doesn't harm the battery according to a whole bunch of user experience over a couple of years documented in several other threads (all the fine print there is because I don't have definitive scientific proof!!!
). What isn't good is charging to 100% and leaving it there for hour after hour, day after day. I used to charge to 80%, now I charge to 90% about once a week (except on trips). After 3.5 years and 84,000km, I have about 4.5% degradation (reduced range), and nearly all of that degradation happened before 2 years was up. It's been very steady for a long time now. Of course Tesla could be tweaking the range estimator under the covers but I'm not worried.
Has anyone spent the time studying the Chademo protocol, does it have 2 way negotiation in regards to the taper, or only instantaneous volts/amps? In other words, is Chademo a first generation DCFC protocol without a lot of built in granularity, and could that lack of granularity combined with daily use for a year and 30+K mile plus (maybe) silicone anodes be the problem here? Remove any 1 of these factors, and the battery is fine? As Bjorn has been mentioned as a data point, does he use Chademo (never,occasionally,frequently)?
Furthermore, anyone know if the various DCFC charge protocols are pretty much apply a constant voltage at a constant and later tapering amperage and thereby charge the battery or in contrast is there a pulsing effect? If there is a pulsing effect, does that effect vary from Chademo to Supercharger to CCS?
Furthermore, anyone know if the various DCFC charge protocols are pretty much apply a constant voltage at a constant and later tapering amperage and thereby charge the battery or in contrast is there a pulsing effect? If there is a pulsing effect, does that effect vary from Chademo to Supercharger to CCS?
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The way the CHAdeMO protocol works is after establishing the handshake, the vehicle sends the current it wants to charge at every 0.1 seconds through the CAN bus. The charger then supplies the requested current. The vehicle uses that to control the taper.
http://www.chademo.com/pdf/interface.pdf
That should be sufficient granularity to do any sort of typical CCCV charge that lithium ion batteries use.
I don't think there is any evidence Tesla is using pulse charging. But given the frequency required for pulse charging (in kHz or MHz), CHAdeMO obviously would not support it unless it offered a special mode for it.
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My understanding is this isn't quite the whole picture.
Very early prototype cars had a "range mode" and a "standard mode". By switching this out for a slider, there were some technical loopholes in ZEV credits.
(Personally I wish there were two distinct modes, as I've forgotten to reset the slider from 100% on the odd occasion I've needed it, only to then let the car sit far too charged the next day
)Close but not quite. Not just prototypes, when I bought my Model S in 2013 it had the two settings, daily (93%) and trip (100%). The slider was introduced with a firmware update I think in 2014. It's because EPA would determine range by averaging the two settings (that's what they did in the early Leaf). By having a slider rather than two settings the EPA uses the range at 100% charge.My understanding is this isn't quite the whole picture.
Very early prototype cars had a "range mode" and a "standard mode". By switching this out for a slider, there were some technical loopholes in ZEV credits.
(Personally I wish there were two distinct modes, as I've forgotten to reset the slider from 100% on the odd occasion I've needed it, only to then let the car sit far too charged the next day
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Right. The change was because of the EPA's idiotic rule about averaging two setting. The Leaf unfortunately did not have the software flexibility to be able to switch to a slider, so their only choice was to eliminate the 80% charge mode in the US order to be rated for the full range by the EPA.
@TexasEV, thanks for the clarification. My car is one of the earliest batch of RHD cars delivered (July '14) and it came from new with the slider style firmware. I didn't appreciate some US cars got delivered with non-slider style charge level management.
Maybe it's my use case, I sometimes go days between using my Model S*, and generally I do primarily short urban journeys with very infrequent trips requiring 100% charge. I wish there was an option in the preferences somewhere that would allow it to do a "one-off" range charge then reset to say 80% on next charge rather than rely on my memory. In effect leaving the car in a configuration that causes undue stress on it's battery pack I know this is "idiot proofing", but it's so habit forming to simply plug the car in and forget on your return home, it's an easy mistake to make! I care not if it's a EPA requirement, I'd rather the car did what was best for me/itself
While I'm moaning about charging / power management. Surely Tesla could make the power save features dependent on if the car is plugged in. I want it to minimise vampire losses if I'm away from the car for a few days, but want it to be responsive in the mornings when it's sat on my driveway. Again this has caught me out more than a couple of times when I've forgotten to change the settings.
Maybe it's my use case, I sometimes go days between using my Model S*, and generally I do primarily short urban journeys with very infrequent trips requiring 100% charge. I wish there was an option in the preferences somewhere that would allow it to do a "one-off" range charge then reset to say 80% on next charge rather than rely on my memory. In effect leaving the car in a configuration that causes undue stress on it's battery pack
I know this is "idiot proofing", but it's so habit forming to simply plug the car in and forget on your return home, it's an easy mistake to make! I care not if it's a EPA requirement, I'd rather the car did what was best for me/itself While I'm moaning about charging / power management. Surely Tesla could make the power save features dependent on if the car is plugged in. I want it to minimise vampire losses if I'm away from the car for a few days, but want it to be responsive in the mornings when it's sat on my driveway. Again this has caught me out more than a couple of times when I've forgotten to change the settings.
Bjørn's Tesla Model S videos
See post 1351. Bjorn indicates approx 350 superchargers and 200 Chademo use.
I have personally charged my 2014 on this 80A@277V HPWC - 100 Innovative Way | Nashua, NH | Electric Car Charging Station | PlugShare
I took the picture in the listing - voltage sagged to 264V @ 80A. The car reported 21kW charging.
Tesla also didn't guarantee a particular acceleration from 60-90 mph. However you test drive and purchased a car you believed would not be purposefully degraded. If Tesla decides to limit power delivery such that going from 60 to 90 mph takes 20 seconds, is that OK?
Tesla also didn't guarantee your car wouldn't explode tomorrow, what's your point?
I think most people would agree that they don't want Tesla making these sorts of changes without their knowledge and permission. Our vehicles were not artificially limited when we purchased them, only after a period of ownership. That should have been disclosed prior to purchase, clearly. If batteries are subject to premature failure if charged at the high rate of speed advertised by Tesla, then Tesla needs to cover such failures under its warranty, and if necessary, extend the warranty coverage.
It is simply not okay to reduce your vehicle's performance artificially, via software, after you bought it. Period. If such reduction in performance happens as a natural byproduct of wear and tear, that's different and expected. Artificially limiting via software, which is an intentional human decision to alter performance parameters over the course of your ownership period and after you've purchased the vehicle, is not acceptable.
I agree several people do agree, but frankly I am not sure "most" people. Especially if agreeing were to mean passing actual judgement on Tesla, not simply offering some vague and non-committal "agree comms need improvement, but...".
IMO there seems to be a lot more of pretending this does not exist on going on / moving on quickly / wanting the conversation to end kind of thinking than your message suggests.
And maybe that's fair to point out. Not all agree there is anything that bad about what Tesla is doing. That's why Tesla keeps getting away with it, too.
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