you need to update your sig. 147,643 miles on 5/9 vs 101,128 miles on 2/17; lots of driving in 2.5 months, im impressed and really want a Tesla, i do ~2,100 mile round trips 6x a year on east coast plus others
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
...or 85D's have a different situation compared to non-D's for some reason? After all, that one case is 85D and it also had a Service Center make a statement it was DC charging related.
There is also the possibility that taper changes are different on other batteries, instead of peak rate throttling, some other changes could be happening. Or not.
But I agree, it seems 85's aren't affected the same way. As a working theory that sounds good to me.
I believe there is a very simple software solution which would satisfy me and I suspect most others.
I am going on the assumption that the Tesla software monitors either how much and what type of charging is done in order to estimate changes to battery chemistry, or has some way to directly measure changes to battery chemistry, either way, the software has a number (or a group of numbers) which represent the changes in chemistry which will directly result in reduced max rate charging.
There should be some place in the user interface where I can see these numbers (perhaps as a handy meter, the raw numbers are not important, just something which can been seen to get progressively worse, a percentage would do that, perhaps with a color, green->yellow->red). This way, I can directly see the impact my behavior has on the ability to charge in the future, and just as importantly, gives a used car buyer the information he needs to discriminate between two different used cars which have had very different usage history.
If the car is already keeping track of battery degradation, then that should also be shown to the user, for the same reasons.
The first step in discouraging behavior which is bad for the battery is making the owner aware that such behavior is detrimental.
I am going on the assumption that the Tesla software monitors either how much and what type of charging is done in order to estimate changes to battery chemistry, or has some way to directly measure changes to battery chemistry, either way, the software has a number (or a group of numbers) which represent the changes in chemistry which will directly result in reduced max rate charging.
There should be some place in the user interface where I can see these numbers (perhaps as a handy meter, the raw numbers are not important, just something which can been seen to get progressively worse, a percentage would do that, perhaps with a color, green->yellow->red). This way, I can directly see the impact my behavior has on the ability to charge in the future, and just as importantly, gives a used car buyer the information he needs to discriminate between two different used cars which have had very different usage history.
If the car is already keeping track of battery degradation, then that should also be shown to the user, for the same reasons.
The first step in discouraging behavior which is bad for the battery is making the owner aware that such behavior is detrimental.
Yes, the taper does occur slightly sooner as the cells age. But this has been known for a while.
That would be a marketing and PR disaster. 99% of owners probably have no problem. 99.9% probably have no significant problem.
.1% are sacrificed for the greater good.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Maybe Tesla should re-enable a very short peak charge rate at 110kW for a few seconds or so then quickly taper it down. Peak charge rate achieved 
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Sure, but then at the same time, the max charge rates are not consistent between versions either:Not guaranteeing the maximum charge rate because sometime conditions won't be optimal for it is *NOT* the same thing as guaranteeing you will *NEVER* reach the maximum charge rate because you are being capped via a software based counter
85kWh A packs ~90kW max
85kWh non-A packs ~120kW max
60/70/75 kWh ~100 kW max
90kWh (pre-refresh) ~116kW max
90kWh (newer refresh) ~113kW max (but is overall faster than even the 85kWh due to different taper)
100kWh ~120kW max (but overall is faster due to different taper)
Tesla Ups Supercharger Charging Rate For Refreshed Model S 90D & P90D - Video
P100D SuperCharging Rate
Their "up to 120kW" covers all those models (and I believe very few people have actually achieved 120kW, pretty much all stars have to align). Tesla never really breaks down by this much detail, so they don't have a explicit guarantee on what each model charges at.
Last edited:
Thank you for the heads up! Truly much appreciated. Would be a very annoying situation to be stuck in.
If I calculate backwards from charges and/or discharges my car equals 100% to roughly 81 kWh, so it appears my cars unbalanced calculation of capacity is permanent/static and that I can always drive to at least -5%.
Not that it's a goal for me in any way
However I often do go close to 0% (but still in th positives) simply to avoid charging all the time...
Weird it differs so much between Tesla's cars.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I half expect them to do that. But really, in practical terms, if Tesla can apply the special taper algorithm (where the taper happens later) to the affected cars it can really help keep the overall practical speeds the same. The area under the curve matters more than the absolute peak.Maybe Tesla should re-enable a very short peak charge rate at 110kW for a few seconds or so then quickly taper it down. Peak charge rate achieved
Last edited:
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
(Post was referring to suggestion for a battery health display)
Not only that, but if EVs are to be adopted by the mass market and not just enthusiasts, Tesla doesn't want people to have to think about the battery. That's likely why the range meter was shrunk and moved from the center of the IC down to the corner a few firmware updates ago. The battery management system takes care of the battery to preserve its range in a way that is seamless to the owner-- that's what the vast majority of non-EV enthusiast (and non-engineer) owners will want. The mass market will not be keeping spreadsheets about supercharging.
And the 0.1%, if that's what it is, aren't even being sacrificed. I would hardly call it a sacrifice for supercharging to take a few more minutes sometimes. Unless you're starting at a low SOC and not on a paired stall, it doesn't even happen.
Last edited:
thats not very impressive IMO. others with high miles like me have higher range. i think the one that was at 200k+ only had 6% degradation, vs mine which is more like somewhere between 13-16% degradation if you're going by range. if you go by usable kW its more like 20% degradation. I don't remember what it was when i first got it, 265 or 275. usable kW was 77kWh and now from 100% to 0% its like ~61 or ~62kWh
sig says 2/17/16, not 2/17/17.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
A bit of positive news on this topic ... Tesla battery researcher says they doubled lifetime of batteries in Tesla’s products 4 years ahead of time
Almost a year into his new research partnership with Tesla, battery researcher Jeff Dahn has been hitting the talk circuit presenting some of his team’s recent progress. We reported last week on his talk at the International Battery Seminar from March and now we have a talk from him at MIT this week.
He went into details about why Tesla decided to work with his team and hire one of his graduate students, but he also announced that they have developed cells that can double the lifetime of the batteries in Tesla’s products – 4 years ahead of schedule. expand full story
During the talk titled “Why would Tesla Motors partner with some Canadian?” – embedded below, Dahn explained how they invented a way to test battery cells in order to accurately monitor them during charging and discharging to identify causes for degradation.
Almost a year into his new research partnership with Tesla, battery researcher Jeff Dahn has been hitting the talk circuit presenting some of his team’s recent progress. We reported last week on his talk at the International Battery Seminar from March and now we have a talk from him at MIT this week.
He went into details about why Tesla decided to work with his team and hire one of his graduate students, but he also announced that they have developed cells that can double the lifetime of the batteries in Tesla’s products – 4 years ahead of schedule. expand full story
During the talk titled “Why would Tesla Motors partner with some Canadian?” – embedded below, Dahn explained how they invented a way to test battery cells in order to accurately monitor them during charging and discharging to identify causes for degradation.
Last edited:
apologies,
i drive ~20,000\year. i was impressed. i really really want a big battery S or 3, wife/boss says ok soonest, pencil out the figures. been a fan since way way back in time. i spot X and S on roads all the time on east coast DC to SW Florida region.
when the avalanche starts, the pebble's vote no longer matters, the incipient "meltup" will buy part of my model 3 and i will retain most of my shares
But those were *ALL* previously known and documented limitations. This new one was not disclosed and changes how fast you can charge if you've charged too many times. Totally different.
scottf200
Well-Known Member
Potentially similar to the ~80 kW rate for 20 minutes that I show in this chart: If you fast charge, Tesla will permanently throttle charging
My 70 kWh A battery maxes at 116 kW, not ~100.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The act of applying limitations after the fact without disclosing is one issue (I get why people take issue with that), but the claims about "guaranteeing" a certain charge rate is another issue (Tesla did not do so).
Like with the 1500A ludicrous limit I made in the other thread, I'll stick my head out and predict Tesla's going to eventually settle the limit at the ~90kW peak rate of the earliest superchargers. Like with the 1500A, which was how they defined the Ludicrous option to the media, the ~90kW peak is what defines superchargers (applicable for all models). The mitigating thing they might do is adjusting the tapering minimize the practical effects. I don't know how likely they will do that trick of allowing 100+kW for a few seconds just to claim the peak rate, but I wouldn't say that's impossible.
Last edited:
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I forgot the 70D had a "true" version (not the software limited version).
Too late to edit now though.
The software limited version and 75kWh packs appear to limit around 100kW (as did the old "true" 60kWh packs).
75D Owners - What's the max. supercharging rate you have seen?
Similar threads
