If you fast charge, Tesla will permanently throttle charging

[whttiger25]

No actually they don't range from 110-120v. The spec is 120v plus or minus a percentage.

ANSI C84.1 Service Voltage Limits

Ø Range A minimum voltage is 95% of nominal voltage
Ø Range A maximum voltage is 105% of nominal voltage

Notice that is 5% above or below. Nothing about 110V being OK. In case I need to do the math for you:

114V is 5% below nominal

110V is over 8% below nominal.

If you see voltage dropping to 108v (which is 10% below nominal) you are either experiencing a brownout or your wiring is substandard.

as a counter example to your low voltage if I measure an outlet in my house I see between 119v and 125v depending on the time of day/weather/what I have turned on in the house. I commonly see 121V to 123V more so than either end of that range.

We are talking about the same thing, and it isn't necessarily a brownout or substandard wiring. I think if you google it you find that there are plenty of references to the common outlet voltage range being "110V - 120V", and many common household devices explicitly claim to operate in that range for a reason. it's a combination of the variance around 120V plus voltage drops due to resistance if the outlet is wired far from the breaker, or from extension cords.

I agree 108V is a bit low, but it was 112V without current. The plug in question is at the very bottom floor of the parking garage at my work I suspect as far from the breaker as possible.

 

[torvalstrom]

A short update from me while waiting on loading new firmware on a network switch scheduled for deployment in the morning

I spoke with the Copenhagen service center just after my supercharging session. The engineer pulled logs from the BMS in my car and confirmed my battery state was "one of the best 90 kWh packs in Denmark" - with no degradation at all.
This is the same state they quoted earlier during a normal interval service of the car, while it was still exceeding 110 kW rates when supercharging.
They've pulled detailed logs from the supercharging session I posted data from previously, will analyse in detail and return with findings within a weeks time. I'll provide the feedback once received.

Still haven't had time to datamine my old charge logs, today has been tightly packed with meetings so I'm still behind with work...

I shall return

Tor

 

[dhanson865]

We are talking about the same thing, ... I think ... there are plenty of references to the common outlet voltage range being "110V - 120V", and many common household devices explicitly claim to operate in that range for a reason..

and I'm saying we are not talking about the same thing.

1. Parts of the US way way back in the day used to operate at differing voltages before a national standard was put into place.

2. Slang has a lot of people saying 110 even though the national standard is now 120

3. Devices that currently say 110-120v are just labeled that way because we live in a world market. If you travel outside the US you can use a plug adapter and use that device on a 110 circuit in another country. That doesn't mean you should be seeing 110v in the US on a modern circuit.

 

[apacheguy]

Please, I think to be more precise, we only know that 300 DCFC in 30,000 miles results in throttling. It may be the rate of 10+ DCFC per thousand miles, not the total number that triggers throttling.

That doesn't make sense. Any damage done to cells is irreversible. It's not like pack health improves after 10,000 miles of not supercharging at all.

 

[stopcrazypp]

That doesn't make sense. Any damage done to cells is irreversible. It's not like pack health improves after 10,000 miles of not supercharging at all.

If it is a predictive/dynamic algorithm, it would presume this is the standard use case, and that for the rest of the miles/life the usage will be similar. So it'll limit max speed so that under the predicted usage, it'll be able to keep degradation similar.

In this case the OP use about 300 DCFC per year (I should note the evidence is point to it counting kWh, not sessions, but let's just use this for illustrative purposes). Over 8 years it'll predict it will see 2400 DCFC. It'll adjust the max charging speed to reach its degradation goals in 8 years.

Then another person who will do the same 300 DCFC, but take 4 years to do it (75 per year). In 8 years, it'll only see 600 DCFC. It'll take 32 years to reach 2400 DCFC. So to reach similar degradation in 8 years, it might not even have to limit the speed (or as much).

You can replace years with miles or total kWh, but the idea is similar.

People seem to be assuming something like: 300 DCFC = limited, but that actually makes less sense. A dynamic way would maximize the utility out of the battery.

 

[Electroman]

FYI, for those scoring at home, EVEN WITH "THROTTLED" SUPERCHARGING RATES, he charged from 10% to 80% in 43 minutes (vs the "typical" 40 minutes that Tesla states on their website).

OMG, what a tragedy!

My point from day 1. This whole thing is much ado about nothing.

Much higher levels of throttling happens for a variety of reasons, the most impactful ones are a) high SoC b) high temps. This specific issue pales in comparison to the effects of SoC and temps.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

No actually they don't range from 110-120v. The spec is 120v plus or minus a percentage.

ANSI C84.1 Service Voltage Limits

Ø Range A minimum voltage is 95% of nominal voltage
Ø Range A maximum voltage is 105% of nominal voltage

Notice that is 5% above or below. Nothing about 110V being OK. In case I need to do the math for you:

114V is 5% below nominal

110V is over 8% below nominal.

If you see voltage dropping to 108v (which is 10% below nominal) you are either experiencing a brownout or your wiring is substandard.

as a counter example to your low voltage if I measure an outlet in my house I see between 119v and 125v depending on the time of day/weather/what I have turned on in the house. I commonly see 121V to 123V more so than either end of that range.

When charging my car with an EVSE set at 16amps I tend to see 239 to 243 at the outlet. Divide that by two and that is right at what you should see from a 120v outlet.

Ironically the charging time increase of DC charging peak rate throttling is around 8% (as we know so far).

 

[Lasttoy]

This is crazy
Sunday morning, 74kw
Sunday afternoon, 115kw
Today, down to 34kw
Lost 22 miles parked at home from 1pm Sunday until noon today. Service center said car has to be plugged in or it will
Go dead in front of house. WHY? They said car is always on, period, end of story.
I have 2013, 85, 95k miles

 

[Max*]

This is crazy

You're conflating issues here, maybe it would be helpful to start another thread?

Sunday morning, 74kw
Sunday afternoon, 115kw
Today, down to 34kw

For each of those, it's relevant to know what your state of charge was when you started. How hot or cold it is outside. And if your battery was warm or not.

The lower state of charge you arrive at the supercharger with, the faster you start charging at the peak.

Lost 22 miles parked at home from 1pm Sunday until noon today. Service center said car has to be plugged in or it will
Go dead in front of house. WHY? They said car is always on, period, end of story.
I have 2013, 85, 95k miles

22 miles in 47 hours seems a little high, though not exorbitant.

Do you have always connected turned on or off?
Do you have energy savings turned on or off?
Do you have any 3rd party apps connected to Tesla?

 

[whttiger25]

This is crazy

So call me maybe

 

[MP3Mike]

The lower state of charge you arrive at the supercharger with, the faster you start charging at the peak.

To a point. I think Tesla had changed things such that if you start at 0-5% (not sure on the range) it actually starts really slow and then ramps up to full speed/power.

 

[David99]

When logging Supercharging sessions the only thing that really counts is how much energy has been added at any given time. Recording at what percentage the battery is after X amount of minutes is not helpful because it's a relative number. It's the same mistake that people make when they say the software limited 60 charges faster. No it doesn't. It charges just as fast as the 75, but the 60 has a different point that is considered 100%.

There are different batteries and we need to be able to compare charge speed which is ultimately how much energy goes into the battery over time. Using rated miles is also confusing as different cars have different numbers for rated miles. kWh is the only thing we have uniformly in common in all cars (regardless of battery size and age).

If the starting charge rate is not 120 kW, but only 90 kW but stays that high for a long time and a high battery level, then overall we might have added more energy in the same amount of time compared to when the charge rate starts high but drops down fast.

For practical reasons on a typical road trip the distance between two Superchargers requires about 46 kWh of energy. When I arrive at a Supercharger with aprox 10% battery and need to add 46 kWh of energy, how long does that take? If Tesla clipped the peak charge rate but manages the keep the charge rate higher for longer, it might not add much time to the charging session.

 

[mhan00]

Can reduced supercharging be a warranty claim in itself? You paid for a car capable of 120KW charging, suddenly it can only do 75% of that. Should it be considered broken? It is a part of the drivetrain+battery system. Tesla charges $1,900 for charger upgrade from 48A to 72A, so charging capabilities obviously have monetary value (at that rate the 30KW reduction should be worth roughly $10K).

Tesla never guaranteed a SCing rate. I very much doubt you'll find 120 kWh anywhere in your paperwork.

 

[TexasEV]

@Lasttoy, I'm almost certain the service center didn't tell you "it has to be plugged in or it will go dead in front of house." Nevertheless, if you RTFM you will see the recommendation that the car be plugged in when possible. It's IN UPPER CASE in the battery section, so it's probably important.

You ask why. The question is, why is everything such a surprise to you? How many times do you have to be told to read the charging info on the Tesla web site or to RTFM?

A connected Model S is a happy Model S

 

[winfield100]

@neonak may want to ask Montana Skeptic on Seeking Alpha for a cut of the take on the article trashing Tesla since Montana directly references neonak in the article, perhaps to see if he was misquoted perhaps or something
Short Tesla Takes: Charger Choking, Evercore Confidence, Goldman Sachs Modesty, Conference Call Howlers - Tesla Motors (NASDAQ:TSLA) | Seeking Alpha

 

[Electroman]

"Naonak detailed what he learned after inquiring why his Tesla was experiencing significantly decreased charging speeds after"

This is the kind of lies I hate. 'significantly decreased' ? what the heck ! I am sure a lot of newbies will be fooled and scared by those lies. Good job OP.

Of course a lot of pennies saved by not charging at home should alleviate some of the pain of having to stay 5 minutes more.

 

[NikeWings]

I love the smell of misquoting in the evening.

It smelled like misery. You know someday this thread's gonna end.

 

[whitex]

Tesla never guaranteed a SCing rate. I very much doubt you'll find 120 kWh anywhere in your paperwork.

It's an advertised spec - "capable up to 120KW" and if Tesla limits that capability, it is no longer true. My "paperwork" also doesn't mention that the car will come with tires, yet I'm sure you'd agree it's implied by the specs.

 

[gowthamn]

Tesla advertises that SC charging is at 120kw. So, this is false advertising.

 

[Electroman]

Tesla advertises that SC charging is at 120kw

When new !

Your 100k miles car rarely gets the gas mileage as when new. And not when you skimp on oil changes and maintenance