Improving Supercharger Availability $0.40 idle fee

[TexasEV]

They gave you free Supercharging. They didn't say you could PARK there forever after charging has finished.

Exactly. He was using the supercharger stall as his own private parking space every day.

 

[FlatSix911]

$800 idle fee waived.

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This guy is the reason that Tesla instituted the policy on SC hogs ...

Wow. What's that work out to? 33 HOURS that he was parked at a Supercharger and not charging?
Very selfish! Hopefully the idle fees won't be waived again.

Agreed ... do not reward bad behavior

I've said this before and I say it again, a system where you charge unlimited penalty charges during annual service visits, with only a 5 minute grace no less on a unpredictable ending time, is just inviting trouble for all involved. It makes it hard to note such charges and their accumulation accurately, which quickly leads to unreasonable situations for all - as in this case.

As for the local vs. long-distance Supercharging, I remain of the opinion that until the "free long-distance" wording change and the notice round to locally charging owners, a reasonable Tesla buyer could well conclude local Supercharging was OK and factor that into their purchase decision. Tesla's own staff was very liberal in touting this advantage and Tesla's guidance and disclaimers were vague at best. Tesla one-sidedly changing that narrative later... well.

Nonsense ... Local Supercharging has never been encouraged by Tesla (see Elons note to serial abusers)

 

[oktane]

Nonsense ... Local Supercharging has never been encouraged by Tesla (see Elons note to serial abusers)

How would you know? Were you spying on every customer's interaction with their salesperson? Of course this was encouraged on some level by some sales persons. Of course some people who live close to a supercharger figured this was fine since they were buying FREE and UNLIMITED use of the supercharger.

Show me where it said prior to recently, that you couldn't charge all day and night for free at a supercharger? Guess it was OK with not many Teslas around, but now that more are on the road, the supercharger network hasn't kept up with the demand. Need to build a LOT more.

 

[4SUPER9]

Yes, I think @AnxietyRanger did shoot down his own argument here. This guy has been parking for HOURS. Any amount of grace period would have changed this. Had he be given a 30 minute grace period, his bill probably would have been exactly the same.

As so many people have complaints about the accuracy of the App, I think a pop-op on the screen when you are done charging would be beneficial:

"Thank you for using our Supercharging network. Your fee for this visit is $___.00 for X kWh and for $___.00 for Y minutes of idle time. Your credit card on file will be charged."​

 

[YVR88]

How many minutes after the car is 100% charged do you have to move +/- 5 or 10 mins?

What about ice cars parking in charging stalls are they charged as well at a higher rate? Why no ip cameras at super chargers to monitor things and for security?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@ohmman @4SUPER9

Don't confuse this with my grace period argument. This falls into the unreasonable accumulation argument.

Basically I see two things wrong with Tesla's idle charge policy:

1) This case: Accumulating fees for service center visits will make bad headlines and service center experiences. People do not want 800 (8000 had this gone on a full year?) dollar surprise bills from their car company. It will make them apprehensive of the experience even if they get them waived this time. Consumer protection organizations will no doubt find them unreasonable too. So if the idle charges must be, instate a charge as you go system that makes the charges (and reacting to them) incremental and obvious.

2) A completely separate thing: Make the charges predictable. While this guy was a special case, anyone can be hit with idle charges because predicting charge end time is impossible.

As for the length of the overstay. 800 dollars is around 60 daily minutes over one month assuming daily charging. Had there been an IMO more reasonable grace of 30-60 min (considering that is roughly the accuracy of estimating Supercharger time beforehand) this guy would not be much of "criminal" at all. That is not parking for a whole day, not anywhere close. With $0.40/min and an annual charge, getting a significant bill is not very hard at all. (I agree this particular Facebook guy should still have moved sooner so I am not against him getting some fees of course. But not in a way that turns the issue into a more general concern.)

Finally, let's drop the insane idea following an unreliable mobile app is the solution for people to keep informed about this. Enthusiasts, sure, many normal people no way. At the very least Tesla needs an SMS system to reach most people.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Now, if on the other hand his terrifically inconsiderate actions make him a cause célebre amongst those who disagree with Tesla's parking fees, then I am unhappy indeed.

I would say most of us here actually want Tesla to avoid the bad publicity and increase customer satisfaction. We differ on how that should be done.

What some call disagreement with Tesla or alarmism is often feedback from the real world that Tesla would be wise to factor in. They learned that lesson in the Countergate.

I do not want the idle charge thing becoming counterproductive to Tesla's mission and I fear it will, if it stays in current format. Even if you disagree with my particular fear, I would assume you can appreciate that without implying any glee on my part.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

After few idle charges accumulate on your account, they can/should stop you from further charging until you settle the bill, give them approval for pay-as-you-go. Same mechanism as new cars with limited free range. Same for connectivity after first 4(7?) years.

I wouldn't be surprised if something along this line starts in 6-12 months, selectively, in busy areas.

Tesla is going to be service company anyhow, right

I agree. Something like this really needs to done. IMO Tesla would have been wise to wait for them before instating the idle charge system.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Nonsense ... Local Supercharging has never been encouraged by Tesla (see Elons note to serial abusers)

Of course it has. Elon making an after the fact hooplah about it does not change the reality that for a couple of years Tesla salespersons liberally touted this advantage without limit. No dealers remember, they are Tesla. There were many such cases on TMC too. Many people bought their cars based on that arrangement.

This, I expect, is also the reason why Tesla never enforced any such limits - beyond a note and some PR changes. They know full well how the Supercharger was sold to the average buyer. Tesla reaped major adoption benefits from the unlimited Supercharging.

The real solution - when that unlimited system became unsustainable - is the new 400 kWh system and old cars grandfathered in. Not some after the fact note letters. The 400 kWh seems like a perfectly OK system in my opinion by the way (as long as charging is made clear and predictable).

 

[mhan00]

So, this guy charges almost every day, according to his post. He must live quite a distance from his work. Putting the whole "local" Supercharging arguments aside, what really annoys me is that this person is too selfish or lazy to attend to his car during his charging periods. If you are going to exploit something that is for the good of everyone, the least you could do is to take a brown bag from home and each lunch in your car while you save $7.50 in electricity and then move your car. Or leave for work 40 minutes early and charge before sitting at your desk.

I honestly do not understand this sort of mindset.

I doubt he lives far from his work at all. He probably just uses the SC because it's there to top up, not because he needs it to get home. Judging from what I've read, he's an inconsiderate asshole trying to justify his own behavior. If his work really gets so busy he routinely can't move his car, to the point where he racked up 800 dollars of idle fees, then I doubt he has the inclination to keep constant attention on his car to make sure he can move instantly when someone needs the spot.

 

[msnow]

I've said this before and I say it again, a system where you charge unlimited penalty charges during annual service visits, with only a 5 minute grace no less on a unpredictable ending time, is just inviting trouble for all involved. It makes it hard to note such charges and their accumulation accurately, which quickly leads to unreasonable situations for all - as in this case.

It is very, very difficult to see how it is in Tesla's long term interests to surprise customers with possible hundreds or thousands of dollars (this case was, what, a month after the charges started - imagine 12 months...) of surprise charges at service visits. Remember, people don't take Teslas to service centers that often... Even if the customer is "guilty", accumulating year(s) worth of payments on the background and then facing the customer with it is not the stuff that makes for a great customer experience. If people become apprehensive about the service center visit, that is not good for anyone.

If the idle charges must be, they really have to invest in a more predictable and charge-as-you-go system. Surprise charges help nobody as they are not even encouraging moving the car...

As for the local vs. long-distance Supercharging, I remain of the opinion that until the "free long-distance" wording change and the notice round to locally charging owners, a reasonable Tesla buyer could well conclude local Supercharging was OK and factor that into their purchase decision. Tesla's own staff was very liberal in touting this advantage and Tesla's guidance and disclaimers were vague at best. Tesla one-sidedly changing that narrative later... well.

Anyway, this is not the last time we hear of large bills appearing on the service invoice.

Good points but bad example. This guy was abusing and taking advantage of the system. They also let him off the hook.

 

[redan]

As so many people have complaints about the accuracy of the App, I think a pop-op on the screen when you are done charging would be beneficial:

"Thank you for using our Supercharging network. Your fee for this visit is $___.00 for X kWh and for $___.00 for Y minutes of idle time. Your credit card on file will be charged."​

I think this is the solution. Idle fees are going to be problematic if they are just charged once per year. People have short memories. Telling them up-front, after ever single idle fee charge (and keeping a running tally on My Tesla) is the way to change behavior. And this is all about behavior modification right? Not charging fees to make money, but to stop SC parking post-charge.

 

[MP3Mike]

I doubt he lives far from his work at all. He probably just uses the SC because it's there to top up, not because he needs it to get home.

He did say he was paying $500/month for gas in his prior car, so he might drive ~5,000 miles/month. (based on the prior car getting ~24 MPG) That is a lot of driving.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Good points but bad example. This guy was abusing and taking advantage of the system. They also let him off the hook.

This example is a microcosm of the actual issue.

Look, I'm not saying the guy in this example is a saint - I've agreed some idle charges to him are warranted - but let's not kid outselves. At $0.40/min, it does not take long to get to $800 if you Supercharge regularly.

The idle charges started a little over a month ago. Charging every day that $800 would be around 65 idle minutes a day (of course at work one would not charge on the weekend probably). Not parking there for days on end, just coming an hour late to the car daily. A little more if we exclude weekends.

To extrapolate from this example a normal user over a years time (the time between expected service center visits), accumulating $800 over a year is hardly difficult with this setup, where you have to keep watching some app (without a reliable estimate) to know when to return to your car. Some people made it sound as if they guy parked there in the morning and came back in the evening - this is not the case.

Do you think people will love the Tesla experience when $800 extra is slapped on them at annual visits? Get that warm fuzzy feeling of EV service center visits being cheaper than with an ICE? That fee will be associated with the Tesla experience. And at that stage, so much after the fact, there isn't much help for the actual issue (SpC congestion) there either...

I fear implemented this way the system will end up being counter-productive. Some idle charges are fine. Just make a more predictable and followable system that the average person can react correctly to and avoid the charges with reasonable effort.

 

[FlatSix911]

This example is a microcosm of the actual issue.

Look, I'm not saying the guy in this example is a saint - I've agreed some idle charges to him are warranted - but let's not kid outselves. At $0.40/min, it does not take long to get to $800 if you Supercharge regularly.
Do you think people will love the Tesla experience when $800 extra is slapped on them at annual visits? Get that warm fuzzy feeling of EV service center visits being cheaper than with an ICE? That fee will be associated with the Tesla experience. And at that stage, so much after the fact, there isn't much help for the actual issue (SpC congestion) there either...
I fear implemented this way the system will end up being counter-productive. Some idle charges are fine. Just make a more predictable and followable system that the average person can react correctly to and avoid the charges with reasonable effort.

You are missing the point here...

This type of behavior is creating a SC problem and Tesla is now going after the serial abusers.
The Tesla experience will not improve unless we have SC limits when the Model 3 is introduced.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

You are missing the point here...

This type of behavior is creating a SC problem and Tesla is now going after the serial abusers.
The Tesla experience will not improve unless we have SC limits when the Model 3 is introduced.

My point is: implemented this way, everyone is subject to getting hit by these fees - and they are not very effective so much after the fact. A lot more than just serial abusers will get the fine and it can accumulate to a significant sum charged annually.

A 5 min grace and annual charging is not optimized against serial abusers. It is a too broad a brush at the time and is charged too far removed from the actual event to be as effective as it could be - and charged so rarely, it can grow to be an uncomfortable amount.

 

[Az_Rael]

He did say he was paying $500/month for gas in his prior car, so he might drive ~5,000 miles/month. (based on the prior car getting ~24 MPG) That is a lot of driving.

Yeah, he also said sometimes he has to hit the supercharger twice in one day, he drives so much. He only had a 120v in his garage, but is now getting a 240v installed, so I assume the threat of a future $800 fine has changed his habits. Which is a good thing.

 

[cpa]

Yeah, he also said sometimes he has to hit the supercharger twice in one day, he drives so much. He only had a 120v in his garage, but is now getting a 240v installed, so I assume the threat of a future $800 fine has changed his habits. Which is a good thing.

Yep, he figured out that one month's idle fees likely was more than enough to install a 14-50 in his garage.

And, I bet that if we amortize the cost of his home charging station over five years and add his electrical costs to charge at home, his monthly "refueling" costs will be less than half his $500/month fuel bill for his ICE. (Just guessing as the price of electricity in Utah.) Not to mention the time saved driving to and from filling stations. How much is that worth to him?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

This will be an interesting space to watch. People who rely on the Supercharger network and make daily or even multiple daily visits all the time, can certainly rack up massive idle charges quite easily by missing the 5 minute grace. 1-2 visits every day, even if just few dollars a day of charges, and you have a four figure sum of penalties for your next annual service center visit.

Better sit in that car...

 

[djplong]

I pay less than $0.14/Kwh for electricity and Tesla is going to charge over 25% more than a *residential* rate? ($0.18)