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Initial 1000 HW2 cars getting AP software 12/31/16

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The key word is "expects" in the sentence "Tesla's Enhances Autopilot software is expected to compete validation and be rolled out to your car via an over-the-air update in December 2016, subject to regulatory approval." that was on the page where you ordered your car and selected EAP. That means they PLAN to have the software done and released in December 2016. The subject to regulatory approval is once they meet their expected plan to complete validation. They did not meet their planned date, but they clearly are stating that (a) it's not done now and (b) they plan to have it done by December (but by definition a plan isn't a guarantee).

As far as the auto-wipers and headlights having to do with Autopilot. The reason is simple - in the AP 1 cars, Tesla had a separate sensor for detecting rain drops (and starting auto-wipers) and a seperate sensor to detect when it was dark out to turn on the headlights. They have announced that those sensors were removed in the AP2 cars because they are using teh AP cameras to perform those functions. That means that the software which processes the video signals (which by definition is the AP software) also is now performing the auto-wiper and auto-headlight function. That's why the headlight and wiper functions aren't working and why it's related to the AP software.

People seem to think the difference between AP1 and AP2 is just the additional sensors and slightly different AP software (even disregarding the fact AP1 is Mobileye technology, AP2 is Tesla vision technology). That's simply not true -- it is a completely different system (both hardware and software). Much of the lessons learned from AP1 can be (and most likely have been) implemented in AP2, but it is no surprise that this is so complex. With the AP2 cars, Tesla made a conscious decision to eliminate other sensors/systems and roll them into the base AP software code. As a closed software ecosystem, that makes a lot of sense as it (a) eliminates some hardware (the rain and light sensors) and (b) eliminates some different pieces of code further integrating the car. The downside of integrating stuff more fully is that touching any piece has potential impact on more systems and the code is even more complex introducing more opportunities for bugs and a need for greater testing.

Those people who are saying (with respect to the AP2 cars) that the auto-wipers and auto-headlight functions have nothing to do with AP2 software clearly have not read what Tesla has put out about AP2 nor have an understanding of what software/hardware integration and testing is all about. You're not expected to either -- when you buy a car you just want it to work and I get that, but when you buy a Tesla and the order agreement says that a feature you buy is still under test and validation it is not true to say that Tesla has lied to you or done something improper. You made the purchase and it was all there in black and white. Whether you knew what it meant or not is a different matter, but the same can be said of all of the clauses in a mortgage note or an insurance policy. Tesla is not like other car manufacturers (for better or for worse). In another car manufacturer they do a LOT more testing and validation before they release software so that there won't be problems like this. The downside is that the software/features don't get released until years have passed, Tesla does it in months. The impact is you get more reliability/tested software with other folks, but at the cost that you may not get a feature for a much longer period of time (if ever).

When we bought our other car, Apple carplay was not part of the entertainment suite but it was expected to be issued "soon" and would be an available software update to the car. I negotiated with the dealership that I would get that software update free if it was released within the first 12 months of ownership. In fact, the manufacturer released the carplay feature for our model 3 years after they first introduced it on another model they manufactured. NO doubt the slow release process was due to their approach to greater testing and the fact their model is that updates are released with model years. Exact opposite of Tesla, it worked perfectly when installed, but we had to wait a lot longer to get it.

Now whether Tesla's decision to pursue even greater integration in the AP2 cars was a wise decision or not is certainly debatable, but it is consistent with what Tesla (and SpaceX by the way) have consistently done in the past and is representative of Elon Musk's approach to architecture and systems engineering.
 
I think tesla would have been better off positioning the pricing as a discount for buying it now when it's not done vs a penalty for buying it later, but I guess that's semantics.
It may be semantics but I agree with you. We made the decision when we bought our S last month to wait until the real world reviews indicate both software options are working smoothly, but admittedly I didn't like the thought that we were being penalized for waiting. However, I imagine far fewer buyers would have forked over the $5000 or $8000 if they were told up front they were paying up to $8000 to be beta testers for possibly many months. Rolling out well tested software over weeks and months is quite different than expecting customers to do the testing. (We certainly didn't get that message from the salespeople, but of course they probably didn't know either.)
 
Would you mind showing specifically where on Tesla's site you were given the impression that initial EAP means no AP at all? Please do not point to the blog post from October 19th that requires multiple clicks to stumble across. I'm talking someone going in to place an order today through the Design Studio.

Why would I not point to the very first and most thorough official communication on the subject? It may take "multiple clicks to stumble across" today, but it was literally "front page news" for a couple months on tesla.com.

I agree that the messaging needs to be much more consistent and the last paragraph from that blog post should be on the order page to give more realistic expectations of what is coming when... but the information is out there.

My main point is effectively illustrated by the difference in experience and opinion on this matter. The messaging is inconsistent and disjoint, but all of the info is out there. Tesla needs to understand that they're transitioning to a volume manufacturer and they can no longer count on every one of their customers poring over every blog post and Elon's Twitter for "official" information.
 
The key word is "expects" in the sentence "Tesla's Enhances Autopilot software is expected to compete validation and be rolled out to your car via an over-the-air update in December 2016, subject to regulatory approval." that was on the page where you ordered your car and selected EAP. That means they PLAN to have the software done and released in December 2016. The subject to regulatory approval is once they meet their expected plan to complete validation. They did not meet their planned date, but they clearly are stating that (a) it's not done now and (b) they plan to have it done by December (but by definition a plan isn't a guarantee).

I can agree that is clearly states "Expects", and of course I thought they would meet that stated expectation - they didn't, and I realize that happens in the real world.

I still stand by my statement that i believe it's misleading in "Enhanced Autopilot adds new capabilities". I see a lot of new features in EAP...auto lane changes and freeway exits for example...but those are the features I thought they were "expecting" to release in December 2016 - not the original options. Where in their description does it say that none of the functions work out of the box?

Again as was posted earlier, they did make a statement in their blog about the features not working...if you knew to dig for it. Here is what it says...

Updates | Tesla

"Before activating the features enabled by the new hardware, we will further calibrate the system using millions of miles of real-world driving to ensure significant improvements to safety and convenience. While this is occurring, Teslas with new hardware will temporarily lack certain features currently available on Teslas with first-generation Autopilot hardware, including some standard safety features such as automatic emergency braking, collision warning, lane holding and active cruise control. As these features are robustly validated we will enable them over the air, together with a rapidly expanding set of entirely new features. As always, our over-the-air software updates will keep customers at the forefront of technology and continue to make every Tesla, including those equipped with first-generation Autopilot and earlier cars, more capable over time."

Why is that paragraph buried in a blog post? Why is it not front and center in the description of EAP, or better yet, as an addendum that requires the customer's signature of acknowledgement?
 
Why would I not point to the very first and most thorough official communication on the subject? It may take "multiple clicks to stumble across" today, but it was literally "front page news" for a couple months on tesla.com.

Maybe so, but I and many others I'm sure, were not reloading Tesla's site every day a couple months ago - I only really seriously starting considering a Tesla car about 3 weeks ago.

Regardless, sounds like we are on the same page that Tesla needs to do a much better job of being more clear. But as I mentioned earlier, I honestly think it would be detrimental to their sales and they probably don't necessarily mind that it's not front and center.
 
Would you mind showing specifically where on Tesla's site you were given the impression that initial EAP means no AP at all? Please do not point to the blog post from October 19th that requires multiple clicks to stumble across. I'm talking someone going in to place an order today through the Design Studio.

From the Model S information page in the "Full Self-Driving Hardware on your Model S" you can click on the learn more button to read more details. Yes it still says "Enhanced Autopilot adds these new capabilities to the Tesla Autopilot driving experience." But where did you see that a Tesla comes with the "Autopilot driving experience" by default? Nowhere because it doesn't. Your only option to get any Autopilot features was to purchase EAP, and EAP was expected to be available in December.
 
I purchased and not leased an MX with EAP and not disappointed the software wasn't ready to go. I do believe they are doing their best to roll this out. Things simply are "ready when they are ready". Better to be on the safe side when dealing with multi ton vehicles going at high rates of speed.

I'm still amazed at how the MX was able to replace our Q5 and Honda Odyssey van (majority of the time) and is a pleasure to drive every day.

I do feel quite bad for anyone that leases a Tesla thinking they would have access to toys that never come during their term though.
 
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Interesting summary of Elon's press-conference in October 2016 lifted from Reddit user "Krippy". It makes me relax a little bit (read last bullet point especially) and hope that it will truly roll out to regular Joe Schmoe users (like myself) within a few weeks. I am only reading this after the fact. Tesla long-time fanatics probably follow Elon's press conferences more closely than me.

Any chance the last firmware (v.180 I think?) has AP2.0 rolled out in "shadow mode" for data collection?

  • Elon says this hardware is capable for Level 5.
  • Close call, but went with Nvidia for processing hardware. AMD, and then Intel, were next in line
  • Spent over a year in testing with this hardware
  • Feature set will disabled for at least first few months, predicts December 2016
  • Significant improvements will be released every ~3 months
  • Demonstration of LA to NYC by the end of 2017 without any human touch, including charging
  • Autopilot 1.0 will continue to get better, but it is fundamentally limited by hardware
  • Upgrading Hardware 1 cars will not happen, akin to a spinal transplant
  • 2.0 GPS is more accurate, minor sensor improvements on IMU and others
  • System will always be operating in shadow mode to demonstrate to regulators when computer would or wouldn't have acted in accidents
  • No way to turn it into a kit for other manufacturers, requires too much integration, not realistic
  • Heater elements around all camera surfaces to prevent snow and ice
  • Positioning of cameras is such that dust or ice accumulation is unlikely
  • Initial testing on closed track with Tesla's engineers, then alpha tested by Elon and close group of others, then goes to Early Access Program, 1,000 technically savvy customers around the world, then rolled-out in shadow mode to whole fleet, then activated

Here's the link to the source:
Tesla announces full autonomy hardware (AP 2.0) on all production vehicles starting now [Official Thread - Please keep all posts in here] • /r/teslamotors
 
Perhaps Tesla Vision (HW2) Self Driving mode is pretty complete, and Tesla considers the lower quality Enhanced Autopilot features to be kind of missing the point of Self Driving, and they are half-ass crippling the features in a sub-optimal way that looks pretty bad to us seeing anything new for the first time on our Tesla Vision HW2 cars.

Regardless of that, I think the idea of only using 4 cameras for Enhanced Autopilot (EAP) and 8 cameras for Full Self Driving Mode (FSD) is a recipe for disaster. Tesla needs to rethink this and use all 8 cameras for all modes, whether someone paid $0 for regular no assistance (just the human drives the car), $5K-$6K on just the EAP "features", or $10K* for the whole Self Driving thing. A crash that the log shows killed someone "because the Tesla owner didn't pay to unlock all 8 cameras, which would have saved the person's life ($10,000* to get that feature, or 9 months wages after taxes** (and before eating, water, shower, rent, insurance, or bills) for the median income person)" is not going to follow well for anyone on any side of the equation.

I think what's really happening is that the full self driving mode that Tesla wants to charge $10K* for is really the only mode other than a human driving the car. The $5K-$6K mode is probably a team of software engineers taking the full self driving mode, and trying to think of ways to crash the car, and encoding those crashes into the software, in order to make it "half the value" of the $10K*. Probably, if Elon were to ask that team what they're doing, they'd have to answer him "thinking of ways to crash the car and put it into software". At that point, the Eureka! moment comes, and everyone realizes that the half-self-driving-mode ("EAP" (only half price!)) really doesn't exist. It's either the driver is driving, or the car is driving, otherwise, the AI just can't make up something half-assed because that world doesn't really exist. EAP (Enhanced AutoPilot) doesn't really exist in any real conceptual framework, and can't exist in real life. That's my conclusion. The $5K-$6K feature doesn't, and will never, exist, in any real fashion, is my prediction. Tesla will have to eliminate that feature. (Either refund those who bought it and tell them to self drive, or tell them to pony up the rest of the $10K* for the self driving mode.)

* The $10,000 full self driving mode is only $8,000 for the wealthy among us that can afford to buy it day 0 of ordering the car, otherwise, it is $10,000 after delivery to activate it in software.

** I used median USA income for an individual, and assumed 50% taxes (USA social security, medicare, employer match of both, "income", California taxes, sales tax, auto tax, and other taxes)
 
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Perhaps Tesla Vision (HW2) Self Driving mode is pretty complete, and Tesla considers the lower quality Enhanced Autopilot features to be kind of missing the point of Self Driving, and they are half-ass crippling the features in a sub-optimal way that looks pretty bad to us seeing anything new for the first time on our Tesla Vision HW2 cars.

Regardless of that, I think the idea of only using 4 cameras for Enhanced Autopilot (EAP) and 8 cameras for Full Self Driving Mode (FSDM) is a recipe for disaster. Tesla needs to rethink this and use all 8 cameras for all modes, $0 on the EAP/FSDM, $5K on just the EAP for $10K for the whole Self Driving thing. A crash that the log shows killed someone "because they didn't pay to unlock all 8 cameras, which would have saved that person's life ($10,000 to get that feature, or 9 months wages after taxes for the median income person)" is not going to follow well for anyone on any side of the equation.

Chevy Volt has two trims, LT and Premier. Many would have skipped on Premier if Chevy made all the safety features a 'paid option' on the LT trim.
 
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@Ulmo do you know anything about how the system works? Tesla has said EAP is got onramp to off ramp driving on highways. FSD is supposed to go from house to office with no human interaction. That means FSD has to deal with streetlights, stop signs, crosswalks, and many use cases that don't apply to a divided/limited access highway.

Your description of what you think the team is doing certainly does not reflect my experience in working with control system software development teams.
 
I'm noticing the Tesla app doesn't connect as quickly as it used to with the new firmware. Sometimes it doesn't even connect. Hmmmmm

I don't have the update and I can't connect to mine to preheat it this morning.
 

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You got the update and you're OK with others not in order to have a slow roll out? How noble of you! ;)

I am ok with the slow roll out either way - whether I received it or not - I would rather it work properly before they deploy it to thousands of people and set them loose on highways. That's what's noble. Elon (Tesla) is doing it in a measured way and we shouldn't blame the company for putting safety first. We are pioneers in a blip in history.
 
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Is your AP working properly or are you getting the same camera calibration as others?

Yes I am lucky enough to get the beta update for my HW2 MS60 - it calibrated the cameras for about 10 min during my drive then I started to see more visual cue's on the display - cars to the left and right of me, lane markings, street signs etc.

When I tried to initiate Auto Steering - it would tell me it wasn't available on that road. Although, TACC was working and it worked great! I really was nervous using it for a while, then my tensions eased over time.

I have yet to get Auto Steering to work (my trip was too short to try it), but I did use TACC whenever I could and it performed great. Will report more as I use.
 
Yes I am lucky enough to get the beta update for my HW2 MS60 - it calibrated the cameras for about 10 min during my drive then I started to see more visual cue's on the display - cars to the left and right of me, lane markings, street signs etc.

When I tried to initiate Auto Steering - it would tell me it wasn't available on that road. Although, TACC was working and it worked great! I really was nervous using it for a while, then my tensions eased over time.

I have yet to get Auto Steering to work (my trip was too short to try it), but I did use TACC whenever I could and it performed great. Will report more as I use.
Interesting! Electrek has posted an image of Dash displaying a STOP sign. Have you seen other street signs displayed in your instrument cluster?
 
I am one of the minority people that ordered Autopilot 1.0 and received a car with Autopilot 2.0 hardware. I have a feeling us minorities will end up being the LAST to see any Autopilot activity. :(
PS My sales team never even contacted me to try to upsell me.

Is that an issue? Can't you just pay to upgrade later when things are working properly. All the hardware is there so I don't think you are out anything right now vs someone that paid for EAP, you still have to wait and can pay later.
 
Yes I am lucky enough to get the beta update for my HW2 MS60 - it calibrated the cameras for about 10 min during my drive then I started to see more visual cue's on the display - cars to the left and right of me, lane markings, street signs etc.

When I tried to initiate Auto Steering - it would tell me it wasn't available on that road. Although, TACC was working and it worked great! I really was nervous using it for a while, then my tensions eased over time.

I have yet to get Auto Steering to work (my trip was too short to try it), but I did use TACC whenever I could and it performed great. Will report more as I use.
After 10 minutes you see all that? I havnt noticed anything after 2 hours of driving