Is FSD refundable

[mathieulaforge]

Hi all,

My MYLR is a great car but I got the vision only models delivered in May and I am not impressed with FSD so far. Constant phantom breaking in both TACC and Autosteer mode is scaring me and making the rest of the family sick. My wife now forbids me to use any autopilot features when she's in the car... I opened a service ticket thinking there must be something wrong with the cameras or something but apparently what we are experiencing is normal. Knowing that, I'd like to see if I can cancel the FSD upgrade (I've only had the car for 3 months) because it's definitely not worth 10k$. Does anyone know if that is something possible? Tesla service said no but there must be another way.

Thanks,

Mathieu

 

[jmaddr]

Unfortunately It’s not possible. Tesla does (now) offer a subscription service for FSD for $200/mo which is used by people to “test” it out. Unfortunately, once you drop the $10k for the duration you own the vehicle, there is no going back.

 

[dgaultiere]

At this rate someone is going to do a class action on FSD. Those of us who've been around for a while never bought the bullshit claims about FSD's capabilities or timelines but Telsa is a mainstream company now. New buyers are coming in totally unaware of how much Tesla/Elon over-promises on everything. FSD is a completely pointless purchase in its current form and certainly not worth $10k.

I know that doesn't exactly help you right now but know that you're not alone.

 

[jjrandorin]

Knowing that, I'd like to see if I can cancel the FSD upgrade (I've only had the car for 3 months) because it's definitely not worth 10k$. Does anyone know if that is something possible? Tesla service said no but there must be another way.

Thanks,

Mathieu

Nope

 

[Peelz]

At this rate someone is going to do a class action on FSD. Those of us who've been around for a while never bought the bullshit claims about FSD's capabilities or timelines but Telsa is a mainstream company now. New buyers are coming in totally unaware of how much Tesla/Elon over-promises on everything. FSD is a completely pointless purchase in its current form and certainly not worth $10k.

I know that doesn't exactly help you right now but know that you're not alone.

in bold. Some folks DID and many of those are the people that maybe shouldnt be driving anyways lol

I didn't buy it right out the gate. regular autopilot is fantastic. Tried the FSD sub. cool but. meh. I like using the autopilot as a helper not a servant..

Lane change thing though. MISS IT! very nice on long highway trips. Id pay ala carte for it.

 

[ATPMSD]

Constant phantom breaking in both TACC

Phantom braking is an artifact of radar and your car may have been delivered with radar:

“We are continuing the transition to Tesla Vision, our camera-based Autopilot system. Beginning with deliveries in May 2021, Model 3 and Model Y vehicles built for the North American market will no longer be equipped with radar.”

I suppose it can also happen with vision only, but I have not heard.

In any case, phantom braking is an artifact of TACC and not autopilot or FSD. A refund on FSD, if possible, would not help. As I understand it, FSD only functions when you select “Navigate on Autopilot”

 

[Mrbrock]

Hi all,

My MYLR is a great car but I got the vision only models delivered in May and I am not impressed with FSD so far. Constant phantom breaking in both TACC and Autosteer mode is scaring me and making the rest of the family sick. My wife now forbids me to use any autopilot features when she's in the car... I opened a service ticket thinking there must be something wrong with the cameras or something but apparently what we are experiencing is normal. Knowing that, I'd like to see if I can cancel the FSD upgrade (I've only had the car for 3 months) because it's definitely not worth 10k$. Does anyone know if that is something possible? Tesla service said no but there must be another way.

Thanks,

Mathieu

Unfortunately, the only way you can recoup your FSD money is to sell the whole car to Carvana or a similar service or private party and then buy another one without it. Hopefully you get more than what you paid. Otherwise, you signed something (virtually) when you added FSD that said no refunds, no returns, etc. This is on the FSD subscription page but appears to relate to the whole purchase. If you purchase Full Self-Driving capability, you can request a refund within 48 hours of purchase.

 

[Terminator857]

<...snip...> Tesla service said no but there must be another way.

File a lawsuit?

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

File a lawsuit?

Join an existing one?

 

[mathieulaforge]

Thank you all for your answers. I suspected there was no "easy way out" but that confirms it. And I agree with those who mention a lawsuit. It feels like the product is so far away from the marketing that a lawsuit is the logical conclusion...

 

[ATPMSD]

IHMO, a product sold as ”beta” contains an inherent promise to deliver a finished product, in a reasonable period of time.

 

[Knightshade]

Thank you all for your answers. I suspected there was no "easy way out" but that confirms it. And I agree with those who mention a lawsuit. It feels like the product is so far away from the marketing that a lawsuit is the logical conclusion...

FSD does everything listed in the available features during the purchase process. There's no basis for a lawsuit with those.

The one place there would be one is for 2019 or 2020 buyers- because the sales page said "coming later this year" for city streets both years and that's still not widely released.


That said- based on the previous class action over Tesla being late in delivering features (the original EAP buyers from 2016) all you'd be likely to get is a couple hundred bucks, while millions go to the lawyers- assuming that feature does get wide release before the suit is settled.

 

[RobDickinson]

You are not using FSD, you are using Autopilot with some tweaks.

Only about 2000 people have actual FSD.

 

[Knightshade]

You are not using FSD, you are using Autopilot with some tweaks.

Only about 2000 people have actual FSD.

This is incorrect.

For anyone who bought FSD after roughly March 2019 FSD includes a slew of works-right-now features (most previously bundled in the no longer sold EAP package.)

For those folks FSD includes:

Navigate on Autopilot
Auto Lane Change
Autopark
Summon
Enhanced summon
Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control


Using any of those is using FSD today.



The limited beta you're referring to is specifically city streets driving- which is the final promised feature of the post 3/19 FSD package.

 

[PointHope]

The main reason I ordered two CyberTrucks was for the FSD feature.
I expect the FSD feature will be worth more than the truck itself in the foreseeable future. As database and AI computer power increase.
It wont be too much longer before the non-stop parade of idiot drivers out there now, without FSD wont be allowed on the road.

 

[mathieulaforge]

The main reason I ordered two CyberTrucks was for the FSD feature.
I expect the FSD feature will be worth more than the truck itself in the foreseeable future. As database and AI computer power increase.
It wont be too much longer before the non-stop parade of idiot drivers out there now, without FSD wont be allowed on the road.

I think that's what we're all hoping for but when you read the predictions (even from Tesla's employees) it looks like we're a long way out from that happening. I keep my cars for about 4 years and I don't expect that the FSD option I bought on mine will ever be fully activated in that time. Would be happy to be proven wrong... Good thing the car is still a lot of fun to drive on its own.

Some reading for those interested:

Tesla Autopilot director contradicts Musk’s self-driving timeline

Musk described full autonomy as "basically a solved problem" in 2016.

arstechnica.com

Tesla privately admits Elon Musk has been exaggerating about ‘full self-driving’

Musk’s comments do not match the “engineering reality.”

www.theverge.com

 

[2101Guy]

Sounds like you may have purchased FSD based on numerous claims made by the hands on CEO of the company.

including this claim:

Elon Musk says Tesla's Full Self-Driving tech will have Level 5 autonomy by the end of 2021

Tesla's CEO also confirmed that customers won't be able to transfer previous FSD purchases between old and new cars.

www.cnet.com

If your purchase was based on marketing claims by the CEO, Some might suggest waiting until 12/31/2021 to determine if in fact what was promised, comes to fruition. If it does, then I dont think you have a claim in civil court for a $10k refund.

If his promise does not come to fruition......

 

[Knightshade]

Sounds like you may have purchased FSD based on numerous claims made by the hands on CEO of the company.

including this claim:

Elon Musk says Tesla's Full Self-Driving tech will have Level 5 autonomy by the end of 2021

Tesla's CEO also confirmed that customers won't be able to transfer previous FSD purchases between old and new cars.

www.cnet.com

That is not a marketing claim (indeed, if you read the transcript of the call, Musk doesn't even say exactly what the headline claims).

It's a forward looking statement during an earnings call. Which is inherently protected by the safe harbor provisions and can't be used as the basis for a lawsuit as you suggest.

 

[2101Guy]

That is not a marketing claim (indeed, if you read the transcript of the call, Musk doesn't even say exactly what the headline claims).

It's a forward looking statement during an earnings call. Which is inherently protected by the safe harbor provisions and can't be used as the basis for a lawsuit as you suggest.

Some might suggest then, compiling a list of all of Elon's historical tweets/promises of FSD as well(Robotaxi LA to NYC with no human intervention by 2019...), include the statement on the earnings call in the filing, and let it play out. Some might suggest that once the suit is filed, a settlement (confidential) may occur before it even gets to court...

Im assuming this request for investigation isnt made up out of thin air and with 100% zero basis...

Two senators urge the FTC to investigate Tesla over 'Full Self-Driving' statements | TechCrunch

Two Democratic senators have asked the new chair of the Federal Trade Commission to investigate Tesla’s statements about the autonomous capabilities of

techcrunch.com

And even on admittedly a VERY pro tesla forum, these poll results speak volumes about perception...

How many believe that the FTC will find Tesla did use deceptive marketing practices?

Tesla FSD is the biggest kickstarter scandal ever.

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[AndreP]

We already know Level 5 autonomy isn't happening this year, Tesla has straight up told regulators that a final release of City Streets to the full fleet will continue being a Level 2 driver-assistance system.

We'll know when a Level 3+ system is coming because systems like that require permits and regulatory approvals before a company can even start dreaming about thinking about it -- Elon wasn't lying about the regulatory side being an unknown