Jaguar I-Pace

[techmaven]

That Ioniq battery is impressive! If they had a 60 kWh version, I'd really think about getting one instead of a Model 3 as our secondary car.

That's not how the battery chemistry and vehicle design works. The Ioniq's battery pack is apparently 272 kg (600 lbs) for a pack level specific energy of 114 Wh/kg. Scaled to 60 kWh, that's 544 kg, or 1,200 lbs which is the same as the Model S's original 85 kWh battery pack (2012) or 149 Wh/kg. The weight of car increases by 600 lbs and the volume of the pack dramatically affects the vehicle design. You can't just put double the pack size into the same car with the same chemistry without dramatic design alterations.

The trade off for much lower specific energy in the Ioniq's case is the ability to handle higher charging c-rate. Go for higher energy dense cells and the tolerance for higher charging c-rate drops unless some chemistry breakthrough is developed.

The Model 3's pack level specific energy is somewhere over 175 Wh/kg once you remove the components in the "penthouse" of the pack. Not only that, it has been proven to charge at a peak c-rate of 1.47 too. This is the most advanced automotive pack available.

Chances are the Porsche Taycan is going to sacrifice specific energy to achieve higher charging c-rate. That's probably a correct assumption that most people buying a Taycan aren't going to road trip the car anyways. So the cadence of driving and charging doesn't really matter. Right now, the Mission-E concept weighs about 2,500 kg or 5,500 lbs and they hope to achieve a weight target of 2,000 kg or 4,400 lbs. That's quite a bit of shaving of weight they still have to do and chances are they have to rely on newer generations of battery cell chemistry to achieve it. In comparison, the Tesla Model 3 Performance weighs in at just over 4,000 lbs, or almost 10% lighter than the Taycan's target for similar size and acceleration performance.

Both the I-Pace and the upcoming Audi E-tron demonstrate how far the major automakers have to come to match Tesla's engineering when it comes to BEVs. The pack level specific energy and the overall efficiencies are terrible with this new crop of vehicles. It appears that real competition won't arrive until well after 2020.

 

[EV-lutioin]

That's not how the battery chemistry and vehicle design works. The Ioniq's battery pack is apparently 272 kg (600 lbs) for a pack level specific energy of 114 Wh/kg. Scaled to 60 kWh, that's 544 kg, or 1,200 lbs which is the same as the Model S's original 85 kWh battery pack (2012) or 149 Wh/kg. The weight of car increases by 600 lbs and the volume of the pack dramatically affects the vehicle design. You can't just put double the pack size into the same car with the same chemistry without dramatic design alterations.

The trade off for much lower specific energy in the Ioniq's case is the ability to handle higher charging c-rate. Go for higher energy dense cells and the tolerance for higher charging c-rate drops unless some chemistry breakthrough is developed.

The Model 3's pack level specific energy is somewhere over 175 Wh/kg once you remove the components in the "penthouse" of the pack. Not only that, it has been proven to charge at a peak c-rate of 1.47 too. This is the most advanced automotive pack available.

Chances are the Porsche Taycan is going to sacrifice specific energy to achieve higher charging c-rate. That's probably a correct assumption that most people buying a Taycan aren't going to road trip the car anyways. So the cadence of driving and charging doesn't really matter. Right now, the Mission-E concept weighs about 2,500 kg or 5,500 lbs and they hope to achieve a weight target of 2,000 kg or 4,400 lbs. That's quite a bit of shaving of weight they still have to do and chances are they have to rely on newer generations of battery cell chemistry to achieve it.

Both the I-Pace and the upcoming Audi E-tron demonstrate how far the major automakers have to come to match Tesla's engineering when it comes to BEVs. The pack level specific energy and the overall efficiencies are terrible with this new crop of vehicles. It appears that real competition won't arrive until well after 2020.

"... the cadence of driving and charging.." You have so poetically described the dreamy life of a Tesla owner.

 

[thegruf]

That's not how the battery chemistry and vehicle design works. .... It appears that real competition won't arrive until well after 2020.

One of the best posts I have read on here for a very long time

 

[daktari]

Just to mention it, the Hyundai Kona EV has a lot of tests published. Battery pack at 400 kgs, 64 kWh usable capacity.

Looked at an I-pace HSE the other day with the brown leather interior. Very nice, the dashboard had a fake leather soft touch material, black, since this car did not have the "extended leather pack".

Production cars have now arrived, but not ready for testdrives yet as they are waiting for this huge software update. 3-6 months anyone?

 

[diamond.g]

Average of 40 mph on a freeway doesn't say much. They did find the speed limiter on the trip which is 124mph.
And guess-o-meters only work accurately on steady state driving. I can get mine to read 50% error.

So it remains to be seen.

Real world example. Since late 2015, I've been driving a loop. 50 miles of freeway with 8.4 miles of surface street, roundtrip with elevation changes and winds, consumes 12.1 to 13.9 kWh. It takes 90 minutes on average so, so about 40 mph for 58.4 miles, hundreds of times. EPA Combined is 106 MPGe and 53 miles AER. This is not hypermiling, but I stay no more than 5 over the limit (70mph max), and I do not impede traffic. Educated foot + look far ahead + no cruise + 2 second rule. Tires are 6 psi under advertised peak pressure for comfort.

As you know, it's all about peak speed, peak kW discharge, peak kW regen. Keep them low, and run over the EPA numbers. Keep them high, and run short.

Hey is Jaguar delays some I-Pace all-electric SUV deliveries, automaker says it is ‘prioritizing’ affecting you or any others on the forum that have ordered i-paces?

 

[MP3Mike]

Hey is Jaguar delays some I-Pace all-electric SUV deliveries, automaker says it is ‘prioritizing’ affecting you or any others on the forum that have ordered i-paces?

And there appears to be disagreements on what the issue is. Dealers say it is "manufacturing issues" while Jaguar is saying it is "prioritization".

If it is like Jaguar says than it appears that they are doing the same thing as Tesla, which I thought most people said Jaguar would never do. That being prioritizing higher margin configurations first.

Or maybe both statements are true, maybe they are in their own "production hell" and as a result they are prioritizing higher margin cars first. And they are only trying to make ~200-600 cars per week? (If they are spreading production out over an entire year.)

 

[daktari]

And there appears to be disagreements on what the issue is. Dealers say it is "manufacturing issues" while Jaguar is saying it is "prioritization".

If it is like Jaguar says than it appears that they are doing the same thing as Tesla, which I thought most people said Jaguar would never do. That being prioritizing higher margin configurations first.

Or maybe both statements are true, maybe they are in their own "production hell" and as a result they are prioritizing higher margin cars first. And they are only trying to make ~200-600 cars per week? (If they are spreading production out over an entire year.)

No, wrong.
According to other Norwegians, First edition customers and HSE are delayed because of a problem with a batch of the top of the line "matrix" adaptive headlights. I have not gotten a message about delays they, but I am worried...

 

[diamond.g]

are matrix headlights even legal in the US?

 

[Lokolo]

No, wrong.
According to other Norwegians, First edition customers and HSE are delayed because of a problem with a batch of the top of the line "matrix" adaptive headlights. I have not gotten a message about delays they, but I am worried...

This is what it is. Some versions without the matrix headlights are still going ahead. Those ordered with the matrix headlights have been pushed back 3-6 months.

Lots of chat on i-Pace UK facebook group

 

[daktari]

They should do as Tesla did last autumn, deliver cars with standard LED and change to matrix later when supplies are in.

 

[MP3Mike]

No, wrong.
According to other Norwegians, First edition customers and HSE are delayed because of a problem with a batch of the top of the line "matrix" adaptive headlights. I have not gotten a message about delays they, but I am worried...

OK, so they are prioritizing the cars that actually work, while setting the others aside until they can rework them and get the issues resolved.

 

[Jigglypuff]

My FE is delayed from nov to Dec.

 

[Lokolo]

OK, so they are prioritizing the cars that actually work, while setting the others aside until they can rework them and get the issues resolved.

It's a supplier issue.

 

[WarpedOne]

That cannot be, only Tesla has supplier issue because they are so incompetent to allow for that.
Real companies do not have issues, one should know that already.

 

[Spidy]

Twitter - We are delighted to join with the city of #Munich & the ADAC in the ‘E-Taxi Project’ to launch the first all-electric taxi fleet in Germany.

Jaguar I-Pace electric taxis will compete with Mercedes cabs

 

[kevinof]

Top Gear drove the I-pace from London to Lands end. 291 miles. Switched off a/c, drove slow , no hud, no heating, no lane assist. Think the real-world range is below 200 miles.

TG's big Jaguar I-Pace test part 5: how far can it actually go?

 

[MXWing]

I saw a convoy of about five iPaces traveling on the border of Irvine, Tustin and Orange two months ago.

People buy what they want but in my opinion it’s crazy to roll the dice on the iPace when Tesla is good to go with max tax credit going away after this year.

 

[WannabeOwner]

Think the real-world range is below 200 miles.

There is some talk that that is the pre-production model, and better range is expected from the final software.

That comment (along with a proper real-world test of Jag alongside Tesla and most other BEVs) was in video I posted in another thread

What is the range of electric cars in 2018? | REAL RANGE TEST

 

[Sunlight]

I have both a 'Want one' reservation in for an I-Pace and a $1000 'deposit' on the Tesla M3 so I'm following this with interest.


Some thoughts....Tesla does a lot of stuff on the fly and uses early adopters as beta testers (much to the disgust of the auto crowd) We keep hearing that 'real motor' companies will test all Beta stuff before bringing a car to production - hence the endless testing and mules/camouflaged cars seen haunting the roads prior to release. Ditto the I-Pace.....


But it seems that Jaguar is so determined to beat Audi and Mercedes to market with an EV SUV that they have rushed the I-Pace a bit prematurely into 'production' - not withstanding the delays due to the headlights (Huh?!)


I'm fairly sure that the range issues with the I-Pace are not terminal or indefinite and are most probably software related. Even the Jaguar engineers seem to be calling aspects of the I-Pace "Beta"...!!!


There is some irony in here surely?

 

[techmaven]

Top Gear drove the I-pace from London to Lands end. 291 miles. Switched off a/c, drove slow , no hud, no heating, no lane assist. Think the real-world range is below 200 miles.

TG's big Jaguar I-Pace test part 5: how far can it actually go?

While the I-Pace and the upcoming Audi E-tron do demonstrate that Tesla's BEV technology is far ahead, I don't think many people buying the I-Pace in the first year really care about efficiency. For some, not being a Tesla for a luxury BEV CUV/SUV is good enough. It's more conventional in many ways and it comes from a marquee with much longer standing. So if the EPA range is 240 miles, I think that's enough. And I think that's the gamble that Jaguar and Audi are making. That their target market does not particularly care about efficiency and they are probably right.