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June 20th Speculation

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I've been skeptical of battery swapping as the June 20th announcement but Julian Cox on SA found this reference in an old video before the Model S came out that pretty much seals the deal for swapping. At the 25:30 mark in this video Elon uses the phrase "A pack that can be switched out faster than you can fill a gas tank", which should sound familiar.

 
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I've been skeptical of battery swapping as the June 20th announcement but Julian Cox on SA found this reference in an old video before the Model S came out that pretty much seals the deal for swapping. At the 25:30 mark in this video Elon uses the phrase "A pack that can be switched out faster than you can fill a gas tank", which should sound familiar.


Ha, at 26:55 he also says that "although the Model S will have solar panel options so you can put solar panels in the roof of the car itself".
 
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Ha, at 26:55 he also says that "although the Model S will have solar panel options so you can put solar panels in the roof of the car itself".

That must have been a Fisker suggestion. :wink:

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"The liquid-cooled battery pack, with quick release fluid connections will be installed in a matter of seconds. The battery pack provides the final structural element to the body. With this engineering feat, you'll be able to quickly swap an empty battery for a full one, should the need arise on long road trips."


Gilbert Passin June 16, 2010


The Tesla Factory: Birthplace of the Model S | Blog | Tesla Motors

I'm still not sold. Elon said that swapping was not a "brilliant" idea just recently. He's used the term recharge and that clearly sounds like charging up the existing pack. He also tweeted that it could be done all over the world, then later changed it to just "all over the country".

Why?

You could certainly swap batteries in any other country just as easily as North America, right? So why take that out?

Because it's a charging protocol. Someone may have reminded him that it doesn't work in areas with 3 phase, so it won't work "all over the world".
 
In case of battery swapping how they will find same battery for your car i.e. your car has 5,000 miles and 6 months old. Do they swap with 6 months old battery or I missing something obvious.:confused:


If swap is offered there are two solutions:

1. swap would entail more of a "battery lease" that provided you a battery, more or less, on a subscription, forever.

2. If you swap, you'd likely swap ONLY for long trips. The swap battery would be larger and you'd get your battery back at the end of trip.
 
I've been skeptical of battery swapping as the June 20th announcement but Julian Cox on SA found this reference in an old video before the Model S came out that pretty much seals the deal for swapping. At the 25:30 mark in this video Elon uses the phrase "A pack that can be switched out faster than you can fill a gas tank", which should sound familiar.


Wow, that sounds familiar. Great reference here. Pretty compelling... I think this clip may have convinced me that some sort of pack swap will be the June 20th big reveal...
 
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I'm still not sold. Elon said that swapping was not a "brilliant" idea just recently.
He's right, it's not brilliant, plus it will have the stink of Better Place on it, but they still may be doing it.
He's used the term recharge and that clearly sounds like charging up the existing pack.
Agree, but swapping in a fully charged pack does give you a recharged car.
He also tweeted that it could be done all over the world, then later changed it to just "all over the country".

Why?

You could certainly swap batteries in any other country just as easily as North America, right? So why take that out?

Because it's a charging protocol. Someone may have reminded him that it doesn't work in areas with 3 phase, so it won't work "all over the world".

I don't think that could be true, if you can do it single phase you could do it three phase. I'd also think that the feed to superchargers in this country is three phase anyway. More likely is they don't intend to offer the swapping service world wide, maybe only select locations. My guess is this would happen at service centers and not superchargers or special swapping locations. Might not even be automated, a two or three man pit crew could probably do it with a lift. Frankly if it is swapping I'm not sure how the market will react to it, personally I was hoping for something more innovative.
 
Extremely unlikely that battery swapping will entail the main battery pack. The battery that will be swapped will be a hybrid, designed to add charge to the main battery pack for long distance travel.
Will be a game changer, and bears no relation to the Better Place model. Swapping the main battery pack makes no sense at all.
 
For starters, article after article on Seeking Alpha comparing Tesla with Better Place...

Because that logic worked out so well when they compared Tesla to Fisker or Coda or Delorian or GM or Nissan or...

Frankly, I'm surprised how members of this board have fallen into the trap of reasoning by analogy when it comes to battery swapping. The laws of physics do not prevent battery swapping from working. The problem is one of engineering, both technological and financial. Tesla has demonstrated that it can do both extremely well. We should know better than anyone just because it is "impossible", doesn't mean Tesla can't do it. Remember, everything they do is "impossible". Right @GeorgeB?

I'm certain that it is battery swapping of the main pack that they will announce. Any reasoning that involves a comparison to Better Place is flawed logic.
 
The Problem I see with swapping that its mid-term business.
With the continuous improvement of Wh/lb and kwh/$ the batterys will get cheaper and cheaper and the ranges longer and longer, so its introducing an very expensive infrastructure that will be obsolete in 10years.
Also given the free superchargers and the most likely quite expensive leasing price for the swap battery I think the reallife demand for swapping will be quite low.
just charging at the superchargers is so much more hassle free.

On the other hand, it makes sense to place such an infrastructure in cities to address the owners that dont have a garage and no charging spot near their home or their job.

And given that the official Tesla blog states:

The liquid-cooled battery pack, with quick release fluid connections will be installed in a matter of seconds. The battery pack provides the final structural element to the body. With this engineering feat, you'll be able to quickly swap an empty battery for a full one, should the need arise on long road trips.

I guess its 98% likely that on the 20th June Elon will show us how to battery swap, I just hope that it will be more innovative solution that Betterplace, e.g. much cheaper and smaller swapping stations.
And I think its also quite likely that Elon will Introduce the 120kw option.
 
Because that logic worked out so well when they compared Tesla to Fisker or Coda or Delorian or GM or Nissan or...

Frankly, I'm surprised how members of this board have fallen into the trap of reasoning by analogy when it comes to battery swapping. The laws of physics do not prevent battery swapping from working. The problem is one of engineering, both technological and financial. Tesla has demonstrated that it can do both extremely well. We should know better than anyone just because it is "impossible", doesn't mean Tesla can't do it. Remember, everything they do is "impossible". Right @GeorgeB?

I'm certain that it is battery swapping of the main pack that they will announce. Any reasoning that involves a comparison to Better Place is flawed logic.

I don't have an issue with laws of physics, engineering or even cost. I have an issue with the confusing and fragmenting customer experience that 2 co-located offerings will provide. If it's not co-located I would support it, especially if it's for some reason more available than SuperChargers.

E.g. If this gets offered as an option for people who live in apartments in the city. They effectively have 2 batteries, and every week just go in and swap them around - THAT model totally makes sense (though need to kill the vampire first).

Pulling into Harris and getting faced with an option of doing a 20 min charge vs. a battery swap that takes 5 minutes... but only if you happen to be first in line, and then gets followed by you parking afterwards and going to the bathroom for 5 minutes? (Since you just came from a 2 hour drive). Not so much.
 
Confusing and fragmenting?

I arrive at a swapping/supercharging station. Charging is free, swapping costs $30. Question: am I going to stop anyway to get a coffee and use the restroom? If yes: charge; if no: is my time worth $25? If yes, swap. On with my life.

Another example: I arrive at a station to find that all Supercharger ports are occupied. There is a possibility that I'd be waiting 10s of minutes before I can even start charging. Even if there is a car currently getting its battery swapped, I know I can swap in as little as 2 mins. Is the certainty worth $30? If yes, swap. If I'm going to be hanging out for an hour anyway...wait for a charge.

It's just not that big of deal. It gives me options that I didn't have before, but it isn't the burden you make it out to be. Elon said he's a fan of "optionality" --- me too.
 
100% agree with this and you. It IS going to be battery swapping. If you watch a very old video before Model S release. The departed Peter Rawlinson goes over the engineering of the Model S and clearly states that the pack is designed to be swapped out quickly and easily. Can't wait for swapping. I hope this is really the case and it's widespread to give apartment dwellers like myself a fighting chance of getting a Model S.

Confusing and fragmenting?

I arrive at a swapping/supercharging station. Charging is free, swapping costs $30. Question: am I going to stop anyway to get a coffee and use the restroom? If yes: charge; if no: is my time worth $25? If yes, swap. On with my life.

Another example: I arrive at a station to find that all Supercharger ports are occupied. There is a possibility that I'd be waiting 10s of minutes before I can even start charging. Even if there is a car currently getting its battery swapped, I know I can swap in as little as 2 mins. Is the certainty worth $30? If yes, swap. If I'm going to be hanging out for an hour anyway...wait for a charge.

It's just not that big of deal. It gives me options that I didn't have before, but it isn't the burden you make it out to be. Elon said he's a fan of "optionality" --- me too.
 
Confusing and fragmenting?

I arrive at a swapping/supercharging station. Charging is free, swapping costs $30. Question: am I going to stop anyway to get a coffee and use the restroom? If yes: charge; if no: is my time worth $25? If yes, swap. On with my life.

Another example: I arrive at a station to find that all Supercharger ports are occupied. There is a possibility that I'd be waiting 10s of minutes before I can even start charging. Even if there is a car currently getting its battery swapped, I know I can swap in as little as 2 mins. Is the certainty worth $30? If yes, swap. If I'm going to be hanging out for an hour anyway...wait for a charge.

It's just not that big of deal. It gives me options that I didn't have before, but it isn't the burden you make it out to be. Elon said he's a fan of "optionality" --- me too.

You know that if they make a swap 2 minutes you'd have a lot of batteries becoming useless for grid storage right?

So presumably if you pay $30, you're not going to want a battery with a 20% or even 66% SOC. It will need to be 80%. And you can arrive any time, so the top battery in the set can't be used for grid storage.

But if swapping only takes 2 minutes, then the one after that will also be offline for grid storage. And the one after that... and the one after that.

I think you'll have about 10 batteries (20 minutes with back-to-back swaps) that can't be touched for grid storage. Thereafter you'll start to be able to use 15% of the battery. To be able to use 50% of the batteries, you'll need to have 30 batteries on non-usable reserve. If swapping on the other hand takes 5 minutes, those numbers drop to 4 batteries for 15% and 12 batteries for 50%.

So the system can't actually be too fast, because then grid storage doesn't work. It also can't be too slow, because then superchargers are faster.
It also can't be too cheap, because nobody would want to use superchargers. It also can't be too expensive, because then people will only use superchargers. (At $30 in order to save 15 minutes... not a lot of people's time is worth $120 per hour after taxes).

So I'm not saying it's not going to happen, but it's incredibly delicate. It's by no means the slam dunk business plan that it's made out to be. I can't imagine if a startup presents such a business plan that any V.C would put any money towards it. But in the end the question is whether Elon can pull it off? Yeah... probably only him.


PS: If there is a line at the SuperChargers, they're undersized and won't be solar-positive. The solar-positive system only works if there is almost never a wait.
 
I don't think there is any chance at all that this is battery swapping. The logistics of a swap station maintaining multiple types of battery packs, ready to go, is the reason why Better Place never made sense.

Each of their models will likely have two or three different options of battery packs. So by the time you get to the Gen III car, then Tesla needs to always have 6-9 different types of battery packs ready at all times for a battery swap. And they will need multiple units of each type in stock at all times.

Also, over the years we will likely see incremental improvements in the battery packs for the Model S in each size. But is it NOT guaranteed that the Model S from 2012 will work with the battery packs that are being installed in new cars in 2016? Then Tesla would have to keep producing the swap battery packs from 2012 for those customers.

The logistics of the battery swap stations are just insane. The legacy costs of maintaining different battery packs for Models going back for 5-10 years are crazy. It would implode the business case for doing battery swaps.

It makes WAY more sense to just keep improving the Supercharger technology and expanding the number of Supercharger stations.
20 minutes for 40 kwh of recharging is VERY convienent. Getting that down to 10-15 minutes should be the next goal.

The reek from Better Place would cause all sort of negative headlines if Tesla announces battery swaps. Better Place wasted $800 million trying to make that work. I would expect Tesla stock to tank dramatically if they announce anything related to battery swaps.
 
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