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Long-range or Performance
- Thread starter Protoco
- Start date
KenF, I too see the 400+ Wh/mi for the first 5 mi with no pre-heat. I think of having decent energy usage in cold weather is when going 7.2 mi to work, my energy usage is <400 Wh/mi (no pre-heat).
On those rare warm winter days in STL when temps were in the mid sixties, my energy usage was 250-300 Wh/mi so I know it can be achieved. Recently, the morning temp was 54F and my 7.2 mi trip had an energy usage 279 Wh/mi.
I don't know if you have done any road trips yet, but the Performance Mdl 3 seems to do better when at speed >=60 mph, relatively speaking. I'm not too worried about less than par energy usage for city driving, where it matters to me most is road trips where range and performance are both important.
I think Tesla should state at what condition the P3D can achieve 310 mi range. Based on some calculations i've made, i'm estimating 310 mi can be achieve when speed is @ 65 mph, outside temp 65F, HVAC @ 1.0 kW (the car will always have a small drain even with everything turned off), level road, no head / tail wind and tires at 42 psi while using the OEM tires.
Another fact that I haven't mentioned are the tires. For the winter months i've swapped out the Michelin 4S's for the Michelin AS3+, which is an ultra performance all season tire - strongly recommend these tires for the winter months. Even though the AS3+ can lose 10-15 mi off the 310 as compared to the 4S's and are more nosy, the pluses of near 4S dry road handling, better wet road handling and can be driven in snow up to 6" and at any temp outweigh the "cons". When temps warm and I swap back to the 4S's, I'll be doing a more in depth analysis of the mileage impact.
On paper the two cars shouldn't have that much difference due to outside air temps and weight differences alone. When I calculate the range difference due the weight difference, it amounts to about a 3% improvement in range for the RWD Mdl 3 at steady state conditions.
The other area where energy usage is negatively impacted is acceleration from stop lights and stop signs. I see this as the main reason, due to 450 hp vs 278 hp available for acceleration plus the extra mass and bigger wheels. When I calculate the extra energy used to accelerate the two cars at .4 g's to 60 mph, the P3D+ uses ~7% more energy to accelerate to the same speed. For me ~20% of the 7.2 mi are accel'g / decel'g, averaging together the 3% & 7% would avg out to ~4% difference.
So using the new 325 mi range value for the RWD Mdl 3 and applying this -4% would mean in IDEAL CONDITIONS the range for the P3D would be approx. 312 mi, which is close to the stated 310 mi. This is a crude analysis and many assumptions are made, but the numbers being calculated seem fall close to Tesla claim. None of what has been stated accounts for the observed 70% you have made (425 vs 250). It would be interesting to hear from others why there's so much difference.
One test I haven't done is put the car in CHILL mode, which kind of defeats the reason why I bought a P3D+ in the first place, but it may be a good discussion point to see what the energy usage difference is.
The 325 hp is some published dyno test on the internet. The official Tesla number is 258 hp, but that number along with the published 5.1 sec 0-60 doesn't calculate out. Using published weight and the 5.1 sec the power calculates out to 326 hp, so the dyno and computed are nearly the same validating the claim. So now applying the new 0-60 time of 5.0 seconds, the calculated power is 333 hp - not close to the 5%. I suspect that Tesla 5.0 sec time is conservative. Applying the 5% to the 325 hp (341 hp), the 0-60 time would be 4.86 sec. We won't really know what the 5% boost will be until it gets pushed out, but it sure will interesting to see what actual times will be after it is pushed out and new dyno numbers.
The same is true for the P3D+ (keep in mind the rear motors are the same between the two trims). When I calculate out the 0-60 in 3.3 sec, the power calculates out to 540 hp and for 0-60 in 3.2 sec the power jumps to 557 hp, which is about 3% improvement. Using the same analysis for the RWD Mdl 3, the 0-60 time should be 3.14 sec.
These power numbers match to the real actual 0-60 times, while the Tesla power output numbers don't - they're conservative.
Matt, you're right; it just so happens the new range has the same numeric value as the calculated hp. My long response also points out the fact that the publish 258 hp is in fact much lower than the power required to accel the car from 0-60 in 5.0 sec. I believe we're getting more hp for the money as well...a good thing.
LR AWD. On public roads the LR AWD is fast enough. The P3D is the better car on track, but it is not a track day car. The brakes and tires cannot cope. So if you want to go to the track, buy a Porsche for that and do your daily stuff in the LR AWD.
To buy the performance or not to buy? So, I love the acceleration of the Dual Motor All-Wheel Drive Performance over the Dual Motor All-Wheel Drive Log Range. Money aside, will the Performance version give me a hard time in the winter? I live in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
Do you see advantage over the straight log range over the performance version for real cold winters?
(then - I'm so torn between the colors - I cannot make a decision and I need to to take advantage of free 2 year charging they are offering on Model 3s if I take delivery end of September 2019).
Do you see advantage over the straight log range over the performance version for real cold winters?
(then - I'm so torn between the colors - I cannot make a decision and I need to to take advantage of free 2 year charging they are offering on Model 3s if I take delivery end of September 2019).
My $0.02: performance model is fun, but factor in that you will HAVE TO (not optional) get another set of tires if you go that route. It comes with summer-only tires.
This right here was a major turnoff for me. I don’t need the P Model - I don’t track, I don’t race... it’s a family car/daily driver for me. LR AWD has all the performance I need or want. Everyone’s needs and wants are different. I’d rather save the cost difference and make memories with my family on a cruise. But that’s me.
Thank you for your genuine $0.02. That makes sense. Would I need to get winter tires for LR AWD? And, have you experienced 50% range loss in the winter or haven't been through winter yet?
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
"need"? no.
Be a lot safer- yes. Same as with any car.
Winter tires are a lot better in winter weather than all-seasons... which are called that because they're the second or third best choice in all seasons compared to dedicated seasonal tires.
eustachio
Member
Are you the kind of person who regrets not going all in? Do you suffer from FOMO?
If yes to either, stump for the P3D or find a stealth performance.
I have a family, enjoy long trips together, but am so happy I got the P3D-.
If yes to either, stump for the P3D or find a stealth performance.
I have a family, enjoy long trips together, but am so happy I got the P3D-.
MagnusMako
Member
All EV's are going to give you a hard time during the winter - upwards of 30% range loss at the extreme end. It's just a matter of how much depending on real world range. It is well known the P3D real world range is less than the LR DM so yes you'll take more of a hit. There are many video's about it on youtube from this past winter. That plus the tire situation which is another consideration, especially if you live up north.
SimonT
Member
We were deciding between SR and LR and decided to go with the performance.
Three reasons.
It was only £10 more per month to lease.
It’s on a 4 year lease so felt the top model would hold our interest longer.
Range isn’t an issue for us - probably 20 miles per day on average.
Three reasons.
It was only £10 more per month to lease.
It’s on a 4 year lease so felt the top model would hold our interest longer.
Range isn’t an issue for us - probably 20 miles per day on average.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
We have a P3D Stealth and a LR AWD.
I recently returned from a mid-week 1300+ mile road trip to Whitefish, MT in our P3D Stealth and the roads were wide-open and largely devoid of traffic so speeds were high. I was carving up river canyons with sweeping turns and long sightlines and the wide-open spaces of Eastern Washington and Western Montana. Average speed for the bulk of it was well over 80 mph (but long sections were done at much higher speeds). There were also a number of mountain passes. Surprisingly, my Wh/mi was only 265 Wh/mi. I attribute this to not using braking or much regen. That's what can really kill your efficiency on a P3D because it accelerates to ridiculous speeds so effortlessly. Also, the fact that I have Aero wheels helps a bunch.
Tesla does disclose this. It's the standardized EPA test which is a mix of city and highway driving involving a well-defined number of accelerations, brakings, etc. It's easy to beat the rated range of the P3D with Aero wheels simply by cruising at 55-70 mph and not using regen braking or heater. Slow it down a little more and it will easily cruise for over 400 miles (which is much longer than I want to drive without a break).
Another fact that I haven't mentioned are the tires. For the winter months i've swapped out the Michelin 4S's for the Michelin AS3+, which is an ultra performance all season tire - strongly recommend these tires for the winter months. Even though the AS3+ can lose 10-15 mi off the 310 as compared to the 4S's and are more nosy, the pluses of near 4S dry road handling, better wet road handling and can be driven in snow up to 6" and at any temp outweigh the "cons". When temps warm and I swap back to the 4S's, I'll be doing a more in depth analysis of the mileage impact.
Chill mode does nothing for range, it simply makes the throttle less sensitive and slightly time delayed for those used to the much lower power and delayed throttle response of most ICE cars. It mimics what non-Tesla drivers are accustomed to. It's like a comfortable space or "comfort food" for timid drivers who don't care to experience the awesomeness of real power and instant throttle response. It won't increase your range one bit unless it prevents you from accelerating as hard as you normally would. Even then the improvement would be slight. The main driving style factor that will reduce range besides high cruising speeds is accelerating to excessive speeds which then require regen braking to haul her back down. Simply accelerating hard for a second or two (and that's generally all it takes) to reach desired cruising speed will have only a tiny impact on range (assuming everything else is the same, cruising speed, etc).
In summary, the difference in range between a P3D with Aero wheels and a LR RWD is about 7-10% at normal mild freeway speeds and at higher cruising speeds the difference is even less. In city traffic, the difference is a bit more. Removing the Aero caps will decrease range quite a bit, especially noticable at speeds of 70 mph and above. Both cars have far more than enough performance relative to ANY non-performance gas car out there. Even the LR RWD compares favorably to most common performance ICE cars, even ICE cars that have better 1/4 mile times. That's due to the instantaneous nature of the throttle response and superior traction control.
You can't go wrong with either car, both are amazing to drive and are astounding values, even more so once you consider the lack of regular maintenance and gas purchases.
So. I'm still stuck in this dilemna where I can't decide between the LR or the Performance. I was leaning towards the LR since I felt it would be a better drive, but when I calculate the cost (see below) it almost comes out to the same price as the Performance (only $2k less) which leans me over to get the P. However, I'm worried that if I do get the M3P, it will be too fast where upon you can't even drive it normally because it picks up speed so quickly off the slightest foot throttle. For those who do own a M3P, can this car be driven as a daily driver as well without gunning it at every opportunity? Any advice from ppl who did go with a LR or P?
LR:
Build in price (red/sports wheels) $60,940
CA Tax/Fees/Destination $6,487
Performance Boost: $2,000
Spoiler: $800
Red caliper brakes/paint: $1,100
TOTAL: $71,386D
Performance:
Build in price $66,440
CA Tax/Fees $7,046
TOTAL: $73,486
LR:
Build in price (red/sports wheels) $60,940
CA Tax/Fees/Destination $6,487
Performance Boost: $2,000
Spoiler: $800
Red caliper brakes/paint: $1,100
TOTAL: $71,386D
Performance:
Build in price $66,440
CA Tax/Fees $7,046
TOTAL: $73,486
The front brakes are much larger on the Performance. From what I have read they need the larger brakes with such a heavy car. If you want performance then the m3p will give you a better 0-60 than the LR even with the boost upgrade. You can always put it on the Chill mode if you are worried about too much torque during daily driving.
pnwadventures
@bpr1de on Instagram
I have the LR AWD. I would (and did) go with the boost. I would not waste money on spoiler/brake paint - that’s another $2k right there. I prefer 18” wheels for the weather and road conditions I travel. If I had gone with P, I would have then also had to buy new wheels (and possibly smaller brakes to accommodate).
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