Major Phantom Braking Issues

[Dewg]

It's important to remember that TACC and AP are using multiple cameras to see around the car, and are watching traffic. Every object detected in motion (cars, trucks, motorcycles, bicycles, pedestrians, etc) is tracked and predicted. Just imagine that all those objects have the same tether that your car has projecting a path ahead. If the system thinks their tether will intersect your tether, it may brake to avoid that interaction.

Those objects may be phantom, or miscategorized objects. Or the neural net made a bad planning prediction on the other object, thinking it would interact with you when it wasn't really going to.

None of these phantom braking issues would be solved with forward looking radar.

 

[texas_star_TM3]

It's important to remember that TACC and AP are using multiple cameras to see around the car, and are watching traffic. Every object detected in motion (cars, trucks, motorcycles, bicycles, pedestrians, etc) is tracked and predicted. Just imagine that all those objects have the same tether that your car has projecting a path ahead. If the system thinks their tether will intersect your tether, it may brake to avoid that interaction.

Those objects may be phantom, or miscategorized objects. Or the neural net made a bad planning prediction on the other object, thinking it would interact with you when it wasn't really going to.

None of these phantom braking issues would be solved with forward looking radar.

phantom braking happens on wide open and empty roads with no cars anywhere nearby... mirages over the hot asphalt or slightly dipping roads confuse the 1.2 MP webcams and the car *thinks* there is something on the road when there isn't. Radar - like used by nearly all other OEMs for TACC - would definitely help.

i rarely experienced phantom braking before my 2019 Model 3 had the radar unit software deleted and was forced onto "vision only".

 

[Dewg]

phantom braking happens on wide open and empty roads with no cars anywhere nearby... mirages over the hot asphalt or slightly dipping roads confuse the 1.2 MP webcams and the car *thinks* there is something on the road when there isn't. Radar - like used by nearly all other OEMs for TACC - would definitely help.

i rarely experienced phantom braking before my 2019 Model 3 had the radar unit software deleted and was forced onto "vision only".

Few points:

1) There doesn't have to be cars around you for the system to think there are. The neural nets may be misinterpreting objects around you, like a cactus near the side of the road in a wide open desert, to be another car, or pedestrian. And for a split second, that misinterpretation may lead to your car thinking that object will intersect with yours, causing the braking.

2) Forward looking radar would help with the objects directly in front of you. When it sees a mirage, radar can inform the system there's nothing really there. This, again, won't help with mirages or "phantom" objects on your side, blind spot, or behind you, where the system can think those objects may interact with your vehicle.

3) The reason you rarely experienced phantom braking with radar may be because the code was much less complex back then. Most of AP and TACC was hard coded and not relying on neural nets. Even now, AP and TACC haven't changed much, with FSD Beta taking most of the advanced coding. As the neural nets evolve and improve, those improvements will eventually replace the old AP and TACC code. Only time will tell how that impacts non-radar vehicles.

 

[Supcom]

Few points:

1) There doesn't have to be cars around you for the system to think there are. The neural nets may be misinterpreting objects around you, like a cactus near the side of the road in a wide open desert, to be another car, or pedestrian. And for a split second, that misinterpretation may lead to your car thinking that object will intersect with yours, causing the braking.

2) Forward looking radar would help with the objects directly in front of you. When it sees a mirage, radar can inform the system there's nothing really there. This, again, won't help with mirages or "phantom" objects on your side, blind spot, or behind you, where the system can think those objects may interact with your vehicle.

3) The reason you rarely experienced phantom braking with radar may be because the code was much less complex back then. Most of AP and TACC was hard coded and not relying on neural nets. Even now, AP and TACC haven't changed much, with FSD Beta taking most of the advanced coding. As the neural nets evolve and improve, those improvements will eventually replace the old AP and TACC code. Only time will tell how that impacts non-radar vehicles.

Presuming that Tesla ultimately pulls FSDb code into TACC and AP, I can say that this should greatly improve PB issues. I recently drove from OKC to Santa Fe, NM and back using FSDb 11.3.6 on a MY and had zero PB events despite extreme heat and no shortage of mirages. Last year, I drove to Grand Canyon and back along a similar route using the old pre-single-stack NOA and had many PB events.

It's pretty obvious that Tesla has stopped making any substantive changes to TACC/AP until they have FSDb working well enough to make the switch. Maybe they're waiting for FSDb 12.x, but they could quell a lot of complaints if they would switch the code over now.

 

[zoomer0056]

into TACC and AP

Nit: TACC is one feature of AP.

 

[Supcom]

Nit: TACC is one feature of AP.

Which does not invalidate my post of make it any less accurate or understandable.

 

[texas_star_TM3]

Presuming that Tesla ultimately pulls FSDb code into TACC and AP, I can say that this should greatly improve PB issues. I recently drove from OKC to Santa Fe, NM and back using FSDb 11.3.6 on a MY and had zero PB events despite extreme heat and no shortage of mirages. Last year, I drove to Grand Canyon and back along a similar route using the old pre-single-stack NOA and had many PB events.

It's pretty obvious that Tesla has stopped making any substantive changes to TACC/AP until they have FSDb working well enough to make the switch. Maybe they're waiting for FSDb 12.x, but they could quell a lot of complaints if they would switch the code over now.

they better get going... because as it stands the wife vetoes now taking the Tesla on road-trips in the summer and I'm not driving "manual" for hours without TACC ... funny how our 2020 Mazda CX-5 has no issues with their TACC version but again... they use radar...

 

[enemji]

Presuming that Tesla ultimately pulls FSDb code into TACC and AP, I can say that this should greatly improve PB issues. I recently drove from OKC to Santa Fe, NM and back using FSDb 11.3.6 on a MY and had zero PB events despite extreme heat and no shortage of mirages. Last year, I drove to Grand Canyon and back along a similar route using the old pre-single-stack NOA and had many PB events.

It's pretty obvious that Tesla has stopped making any substantive changes to TACC/AP until they have FSDb working well enough to make the switch. Maybe they're waiting for FSDb 12.x, but they could quell a lot of complaints if they would switch the code over now.

11.3.6 is single stack

 

[sleepydoc]

they better get going... because as it stands the wife vetoes now taking the Tesla on road-trips in the summer and I'm not driving "manual" for hours without TACC ... funny how our 2020 Mazda CX-5 has no issues with their TACC version but again... they use radar...

My sons 2020 Subaru Forester uses vision and it has no issues with phantom braking.

My sister’s 2012 Prius used radar and it had no issues with phantom braking. The 2022 Nissan Altima I rented last year had radar. It had no issues with phantom braking.

The problem isn’t the mode of sensing. The problem is the code.

 

[Supcom]

11.3.6 is single stack

That's an accurate, though irrelevant, statement.

Care to provide some amplification?

 

[Supcom]

they better get going... because as it stands the wife vetoes now taking the Tesla on road-trips in the summer and I'm not driving "manual" for hours without TACC ... funny how our 2020 Mazda CX-5 has no issues with their TACC version but again... they use radar...

Well, in the meantime, it's good that you have a workaround.

 

[stopcrazypp]

My sons 2020 Subaru Forester uses vision and it has no issues with phantom braking.

My sister’s 2012 Prius used radar and it had no issues with phantom braking. The 2022 Nissan Altima I rented last year had radar. It had no issues with phantom braking.

The problem isn’t the mode of sensing. The problem is the code.

I should note the previous radar based system by Tesla also had phantom braking, just that the triggers may be different.

The main issue with Tesla's system is it's trying to do too much. It's designed to respond to all sorts of things that other systems are not designed to respond to (for example a recent WSJ video made a big deal about Tesla system's response to stationary emergency vehicles; the earliest versions were not designed to respond to cross traffic or cars in the opposing lane at all, but fatal accidents meant Tesla has to take that into account also).

I don't see Tesla changing it and making it a "dumb" ACC/lane keeping system, given NHTSA breathing down their neck. Phantom braking is a minor issue compared to fatal accidents from the car not responding. They are hoping FSD Beta can eventually migrate to regular AP and solve most of the issues.

 

[southTX]

I thought the PB issue had gotten better with 2023.20.7 (2023 MY HW3) but nope. I had a drive from south Texas to El Paso with zero PBs and from south Texas to Houston with zero PBs. On the way home from El Paso, though on 2023.20.9, had numerous events between van horn and Ozona tx. Also just did another trip to Houston and back with numerous PBs, some very dangerous in traffic. Not using it anymore and can’t wait to ditch Tesla once other cars are fully on NACS. I filed a complaint with the NHSTA and recommend everyone else does the same. I love driving the Tesla on short trips but it has become unusable on road trips.

 

[DrGriz]

I should note the previous radar based system by Tesla also had phantom braking, just that the triggers may be different.

The main issue with Tesla's system is it's trying to do too much. It's designed to respond to all sorts of things that other systems are not designed to respond to (for example a recent WSJ video made a big deal about Tesla system's response to stationary emergency vehicles; the earliest versions were not designed to respond to cross traffic or cars in the opposing lane at all, but fatal accidents meant Tesla has to take that into account also).

I don't see Tesla changing it and making it a "dumb" ACC/lane keeping system, given NHTSA breathing down their neck. Phantom braking is a minor issue compared to fatal accidents from the car not responding. They are hoping FSD Beta can eventually migrate to regular AP and solve most of the issues.

I think this spot on.

I am still waiting, after following it from the beginning, for someone to come into this thread and report on an actual accident caused by Tesla PB. Perhaps there are some examples, but mostly it seems like there are just scary moments.

 

[zoomer0056]

I think this spot on.

I am still waiting, after following it from the beginning, for someone to come into this thread and report on an actual accident caused by Tesla PB. Perhaps there are some examples, but mostly it seems like there are just scary moments.

I think you're right. If there were any it would be displayed in bright flashing lights here on TMC. To date it is only "almost rear-ended".

 

[enemji]

I think you're right. If there were any it would be displayed in bright flashing lights here on TMC. To date it is only "almost rear-ended".

I have never seen/experienced a PB event when there are vehicles within visual range.

 

[sleepydoc]

I have never seen/experienced a PB event when there are vehicles within visual range.

Come spend 10 minutes in my car.

I should note the previous radar based system by Tesla also had phantom braking, just that the triggers may be different.

The main issue with Tesla's system is it's trying to do too much. It's designed to respond to all sorts of things that other systems are not designed to respond to (for example a recent WSJ video made a big deal about Tesla system's response to stationary emergency vehicles; the earliest versions were not designed to respond to cross traffic or cars in the opposing lane at all, but fatal accidents meant Tesla has to take that into account also).

I don't see Tesla changing it and making it a "dumb" ACC/lane keeping system, given NHTSA breathing down their neck. Phantom braking is a minor issue compared to fatal accidents from the car not responding. They are hoping FSD Beta can eventually migrate to regular AP and solve most of the issues.

I find it odd that NHTSA is worried about Tesla identifying emergency vehicles when half the cars on the road simply have dumb cruise control and the majority that have adaptive cruise do nothing more than brake for the car in front of them. It seems like Tesla's being held to a different standard because they're trying to advance technology.

 

[sleepydoc]

I have never seen/experienced a PB event when there are vehicles within visual range.

I should clarify - what do you mean by a PB event? False AEB events are very rare for me. On the other hand, if I'm using TACC I'll get random braking/slowdowns every mile or so, anywhere from 5-20 MPH, recently had one dropping from 55-60 MPH to about 25 MPH.

Some of these are repeatable, reliably happening in the same location. Others are random. If I'm using FSD then there are *far* fewer braking events which is odd since it's supposed to be a unified stack.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Come spend 10 minutes in my car.

I find it odd that NHTSA is worried about Tesla identifying emergency vehicles when half the cars on the road simply have dumb cruise control and the majority that have adaptive cruise do nothing more than brake for the car in front of them. It seems like Tesla's being held to a different standard because they're trying to advance technology.

It seems to be that way. For example, NHTSA made a big deal about Tesla wheel nag not being strict enough, but as far as I know they have not done anything about Infiniti's system that had no nags. I think part of it is because Tesla has probably the most advanced accident reporting system in the industry, so they know about practically every incident. For other manufacturers it requires the end user to report it. Other reason is the media loves to report on Tesla and rarely names the manufacturer when other brands are involved.

I should clarify - what do you mean by a PB event? False AEB events are very rare for me. On the other hand, if I'm using TACC I'll get random braking/slowdowns every mile or so, anywhere from 5-20 MPH, recently had one dropping from 55-60 MPH to about 25 MPH.

Some of these are repeatable, reliably happening in the same location. Others are random. If I'm using FSD then there are *far* fewer braking events which is odd since it's supposed to be a unified stack.

Currently "single stack" only refers to NOA when FSD Beta is enabled. If you disable FSD Beta, I don't believe it is using the FSD Beta code, but rather still legacy. Tesla have not pushed FSD Beta code to the general AP code yet. Supposedly that will happen in version 12, but as you may be well aware, it may not happen as planned.

 

[YW555]

You guys might think I'm losing my mind but hear me out. It seems like my Basic Autopilot (Never had FSD) can recognize turn signals of other vehicles. In the drive today a vehicle in the right adjacent lane had their signal to coming to my lane and Basic Autopilot braked hard. It happened again about 15 minutes later which another vehicle but on the left side. In both cases the vehicles were going straight so you wouldn't be able to tell that they wanted to merge into my lane unless you are looking at their turn signals.

I have a 2023 Model Y, HW3 with 2023.20.9 update. In fact I had no phantom braking until last month then suddenly I'm getting 2-3 events per day. It's constantly thinking that a car in my adjacent lane is merging into my lane. In the Autopilot visualization screen it'll briefly show the adjacent car black as if it's now following that vehicle.