Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Wiki MASTER THREAD: Actual FSD Beta downloads and experiences

Dan D.

Member
Dec 7, 2020
890
1,110
Vancouver, BC
it does seem like currently the car as a higher preference for relying on the front cameras. If the car leans toward the direction you want to go, the other cameras do have a good shot at seeing past the obstruction without you having to cross the center line of the road you're turning on.

What I notice about these heavily obstructed turns is that the car is practically guessing that the way is clear. And as it starts to turn, I'm floating the brakes just in case there's a car barreling down the road. I'm usually thinking, how does the car have any confidence with this turn when it's so hesitant on unobstructed turns....
My fear and conjecture is that it hesitates on unobstructed turns because it can see - therefore it has decisions to make. It may not hesitate on obstructed turns because it can't see - therefore it sees no problem. In other words if it can't see a problem it doesn't consider that there might be a problem.

I have no way of testing this, and I hope this is not correct, but other people have shown that when it can't possibly see, it goes anyway. Which if true would be the worst thing to do.

But someone would have to run some obstructed tests with rapidly oncoming objects to know for sure.
 

Fernand

Active Member
Mar 22, 2019
1,645
1,849
Northern california
People who don't have the toggle -- are you going through the new "agreements" and OK'ing them?

I've been driving with 10.5 a lot lately. There have been days when I'm thinking I could actually accept this as-is. Entire sections of city driving with no problems other than jerky steering when going slow on sharp curves. Besides, allowing for occasional mistakes doesn't freak me out, it's easy to take over. But then, there have been some very frustrating times, like trying to drive out of Reno NV to the freeway, where the car seemed barely connected to the maps.

I'm expecting good progress on the next revisions. What I don't understand is the huge difference in peoples' experience. It's like the NOA experience. Mine is 99% flawless, if I adjust the speed with the wheel as needed. There are situations where the car slows down because it reads (or receives?) a speed limit that's lower than current speed. That might look like "phantom braking". There are other anomalies related to speed limits that I didn't have before the vision system started reading signs. That's all easy to override, it's FAR less work than driving in manual. And there's one interchange where a lot goes wrong - California Highway 24 - Highway 13. But overall I'm using it on freeways and highways all the time and it's great.

So, my question again is whether some folks are unhappy with anything short of perfection, and would rather complain than take corrective action when needed. Or are some cars more prone to difficulties? That's not impossible.
.
 
Last edited:

GlmnAlyAirCar

Active Member
Mar 19, 2015
1,699
1,637
Sanatoga PA
People who don't have the toggle -- are you going through the new "agreements" and OK'ing them?

I've been driving with 10.5 a lot lately. There have been days when I'm thinking I could actually accept this as-is. Entire sections of city driving with no problems other than jerky steering when going slow on sharp curves. Besides, allowing for occasional mistakes doesn't freak me out, it's easy to take over. But then, there have been some very frustrating times, like trying to drive out of Reno NV to the freeway, where the car seemed barely connected to the maps.

I'm expecting good progress on the next revisions. What I don't understand is the huge difference in peoples' experience. It's like the NOA experience. Mine is 99% flawless, if I adjust the speed with the wheel as needed. There are situations where the car slows down because it reads (or receives?) a speed limit that's lower than current speed. That might look like "phantom braking". There are other anomalies related to speed limits that I didn't have before the vision system started reading signs. That's all easy to override, it's FAR less work than driving in manual. And there's one interchange where a lot goes wrong - California Highway 24 - Highway 13. But overall I'm using it on freeways and highways all the time and it's great.

So, my question again is whether some folks are unhappy with anything short of perfection, and would rather complain than take corrective action when needed. Or are some cars more prone to difficulties? That's not impossible.
.
I agree with your assessment. The majority of my drives are zero disengagement and many I don't even have to intervene goosing up the speed. I think this has a lot to do with the environments where people are driving. I observe excellent behavior interacting with static objects (intersections, turns, traffic lights, etc.) and generally very good behavior dealing with traffic as long as it is somewhat orderly. Interestingly, it handles some very complicated 5- and 6-way intersections, some of which the streets don't actually line up, flawlessly.

1638539167253.png

However, I noted terrible behavior driving in center city Philly last Saturday evening. Admittedly, this is driving that would stress any human (4 lane square around City Hall with various lanes exiting at various points, traffic cutting across multiple lanes etc.). This was so bad I generally couldn't go more than a few seconds without disengagement. So it appears lots of unpredictable dynamic objects tend to overwhelm FSD. Of course this is exactly the kind of training data Tesla needs to help improve these scenarios.

1638539364053.png
 

aronth5

Long Time Follower
Supporting Member
May 8, 2010
3,075
2,528
Boston Suburb
Despite my previous complaints 10.5 is the best release I've had and works reasonably well. Most of my disengagements are related to how FSD is affecting cars behind me and avoiding potentially upset drivers. Using the go pedal eliminates this problem most of the time. On a positive note FSD now handles turns it always used to fail on and can now bring me back to my house consistently.
 

mark95476

Active Member
Jun 21, 2020
2,067
1,589
Bay Area CA
10.5 is good for me, however, automatic speed adjustments seems to be an issue and I had to disengage twice yesterday.

First was when my car started accelerating (~15 to 30) coming into a blindish right turn with a cross walk. No pedestrian was crossing or waiting, but it felt too fast so I hit the brakes. Next time I'll try lowering my set speed so it doesn't accelerate.

Second was when my car didn't slow down (~55 to 10) in an exit lane with a hairpin right. I've complained about this in the past. Lowering my set speed doesn't do anything. I actually let 10.4 do it's thing once and it made the hairpin without any complaints :)oops:), but it's too sketchy for me.

Despite my previous complaints 10.5 is the best release I've had and works reasonably well. Most of my disengagements are related to how FSD is affecting cars behind me and avoiding potentially upset drivers. Using the go pedal eliminates this problem most of the time. On a positive note FSD now handles turns it always used to fail on and can now bring me back to my house consistently.
 

EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
12,604
33,657
Seattle, WA
Fourth snap. No cars but a sign board clearly on the side. But close to the actual bend. Here is where the first phantom braking is starting, with the speed going below 40 mph. The car went down to 30 mph even as I started pushing the accelerator. Is the car slowing for the bend ? I should note that there is no need to slow down here for the bend, the road signs don't call for slower speed and the road I guess is banked for 40 mph.
....
Here is the fifth snap. No cars but the side railing that is directly in front is lit by a car from around the bend. Here is where the second phantom braking is starting. This happens even as I thought I had recovered from the first braking and was about to report and the car was then back up to 37 mph. Is the car slowing because of the side railing or is it because of the second bend ?
....
Yesterday in very similar circumstances - I got phantom braking in almost the same places. Makes me think these are because of the bend - the car is underestimating what speed it can safely negotiate the bend and slows down too much.

One thing I did notice was - there is an advisory slow down to 35 mph posted a few hundred feet before the bends.

Moral of the story : These are not phantom brakings at all. The car is slowing down for the bends - something AP didn't do earlier - and nobody does. So, when people report phantom braking on twisty roads, may be - at least some of them - are slowdowns for the turns/bends ?
 
Moral of the story : These are not phantom brakings at all. The car is slowing down for the bends - something AP didn't do earlier - and nobody does. So, when people report phantom braking on twisty roads, may be - at least some of them - are slowdowns for the turns/bends ?
I mean they are still "phantom brakings" in the sense that the car perceives some reason to slow itself down that is irrational to the human behind the wheel. I have been experiencing a similar phenomenon on the highway by me where there are traffic light-guarded left and U-turns (but no light for straight traffic) that used to trip up AP2 and cause hard phantom braking. FSD beta still seems to hesitate here, but only slows down a few mph, so little so that I didn't notice this happening until I saw it was happening every time one of these lights was red. (FWIW, +1 to bendy roads. I've done a couple of those, and it doesn't absolutely rip it around the bend like AP2 did.)

My thinking based on my experience with 10.5 so far is that AP2 had two modes: 1) go at the set speed and maintain following distance of cars moving in front of me and 2) stop at the static obstacle (car, red light, etc.) in front of me. While it didn't seem to conjure up phantom moving cars, the phantom obstacles it did conjure up are static, and therefore phantom braking was hard when it did occur. FSD beta / AP3 / fancy NNs / whatever applies a broad range of caution where it will slow down to give it (and the human behind the wheel) some reaction time, and I think this creates a smoother overall ride.
 
I passed "Elon's driving test" with a 99 and got the 10.5 version early this week in my 2020 MSLR.

A couple of observations and a question.

Observation #1: the dash graphics are really cool - I can see them being useful under some visibility conditions to keep you aware of stuff on (and adjacent) to the road. Observation #2: the system seems to be afraid of shadows and driveways - I get brake applications that seem to be related to either vivid tree shadows or empty driveways.

Question # 1: does the individual system in the car "learn", or is the system only receiving and reporting information to/from the servers in Fremont? Question #2: over time with either the car "learning", or the servers updating, will these slight annoyances go away?

Thanks!

PS - an interesting and unrelated point: the 10.5 download occurred in my car without any WiFi connection - is this a characteristic of FSD updates?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ryan27

Products we're discussing on TMC...

About Us

Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.

Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


SUPPORT TMC
Top