Koolio46
Member
Sometimes it will show brake lights for cars that don’t have the brake light on. If it’s on, it correctly displays it.
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Wiki MASTER THREAD: Actual FSD Beta downloads and experiences
- Thread starter jebinc
- Start date
I have a couple comments about the idea of brake light identification and detecting slowing vehicles. As far as brake light detection, I am also of the opinion that you could have some false positives that could cause issues. Having the sun to the rear can light up the brake lights just as if they were actually activated.
As far as identifying slowing vehicles...with going to vision only it is interesting to think about how Tesla is achieving this now with cameras only....because as people have pointed out that humans are just using a vision system....the problem is that humans are pretty bad at gauging speed/distance relationships. It starts getting very bad very quickly as distance increases away from you because there is less of a change in perceived object size vs the distance traveled by that object. I guess the point I am making is that as closer distances it can be pretty reasonable to gauge speed changes, but farther out is harder. Since the distance is the biggest factor in being about to perceive speed changes visually and that distance is static based on object size and reference points, then the faster you are going the less time the car will have to react because it can't perceive anything till it gets to a certain distance away at which point there may be no slowing down gracefully from 70-80mph.
Now humans also look at the entire picture of the situation to determine whether they should start to slow down or not. Overall traffic conditions, what other cars are doing, etc. How well can a Tesla do this? I'm guessing not all that great, and then you have lots of subjectivity to the situation involved.
It's a hard nut to crack, but not impossible. No matter what someone will complain about the way it works/doesn't work.
I did some testing on rural roads with stop signs that seem to not be mapped. These were at rail road crossings and the signs were in good condition it was dark with high beams active. The car has always braked really late for these and I have slowed the car down from 55 to ~40 when approaching and it has been able to stop although very hard. I decided to see if I left it at 55-60 mph what would happen. The car wasn't going to stop in time, so I setup some safety checks (used a stop that had good visibility, where I live so I know the time trains run, had a lookout just to be extra safe that no trains or other cars were around) and decided to let it play out and let the car fully do its thing. As I expected the car with fsd beta driving ran the stop sign. It tried to slam on the brakes and sounded an alarm at the last second as we blew through the stop sign. I took the car back to the stop sign but this time paid more attention to the display (I didn't let it run it this time) it seems (based on what the display showed) that the car just can't see far enough forward (unless it can see more than displayed) to be able to react in time to unmapped stuff which is super worrying to me. By the time the forward arc of vision got to where the stop sign was and displayed it, it would be too late for it to make the stop at that speed. So I am worried about vision being able to handle this type of thing just based on what I can see from the display. This also makes me wonder about if a person was standing in the road instead of a stop sign (they may have another braking algorithm for that but IDK). This is also a word of caution to everyone that if you are driving in a rural area and there are stop signs that may not be mapped just know this can happen (although it is clear that its either not going to stop or it will be a very uncomfortable stop so a driver would already have started applying the brakes typically). I did send a clip of this to the fsd team with an email.
rxlawdude
Active Member
It's probably best to post this once in the most relevant thread, rather than simply duplicating the exact same post in multiple places. This will make it much easier to keep straight the responses you'll inevitably get.
FSDtester#1
Craves Electrolytes
Just a quick note, I just got home from Tesla service appointment for 2 minor things.
It's about 20 miles away in a semi congested area in Tampa. I turned on Fsd for the ride home, which I usually don't, since I have been more comfortable using it in areas I drive frequently. While driving in pretty heavy congestion at 50 mph, a loud warning came on and Fsd moved me quickly from the left lane into the suicide lane, which I had no idea why. A second later some dumba$$ on a motorcycle was going about 70 mph driving in between the right and left lanes cutting through traffic.
He came within inches of hitting me, but I have to presume Beta saved my butt.
Thanks Beta! You didn't try to kill me today, but wanted to keep me safe. If I can figure it out I'll post the video.
It's about 20 miles away in a semi congested area in Tampa. I turned on Fsd for the ride home, which I usually don't, since I have been more comfortable using it in areas I drive frequently. While driving in pretty heavy congestion at 50 mph, a loud warning came on and Fsd moved me quickly from the left lane into the suicide lane, which I had no idea why. A second later some dumba$$ on a motorcycle was going about 70 mph driving in between the right and left lanes cutting through traffic.
He came within inches of hitting me, but I have to presume Beta saved my butt.
Thanks Beta! You didn't try to kill me today, but wanted to keep me safe. If I can figure it out I'll post the video.
Yea after I posted in the other thread I thought it probably belonged here more so put it here. Going to delete it from the other. Good tip.
This reminds me of the false positives that were coming in from the radar signal. Tesla resolved that by going full vision and making that far more robust.
However for the brake lights, I think it would be different: Tesla would rely on vision to determine distances to other cars, relative speeds (including slowing traffic), etc. and then augment that with brake light detection (once reliable enough) for improved planning (earlier and smoother braking). With normal / routine braking, the lights often come on before the car begins significant slowing. Meat computers do this intuitively, and FSD can be trained to do this too.
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old pilot
Member
And then there is always that one driver who keeps their left foot on the brake and the right foot on the accelerator so you don't know what to expect with the brake lights always on.
I try to do the same, I just don't fully trust the chaotic steering wheel movements it does sometimes because I keep thinking it will swerve unexpectedly if I do that.
Today it handled one such stop sign interaction almost perfectly, a light rail train was passing through the intersection and my car started inching into the intersection as the train was clearing. Once it was gone it saw another car that pulled up in the meantime and started hesitating again. I ended up nudging it using the go pedal through that one.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Yes - this is the problem.
If we are supposed to monitor closely and intervene - how do we know when
- the steering wheel is just being jittery and will not cause an accident vs
- the car is going to turn the wrong way and cause an accident
Or how do we know when
- the steering wheel is just being jittery and will not hit the curb vs
- the car is going to hit the curb and damage the rim ?
Close monitoring and intervening when things seem to be going wrong can't work if the steering wheel is not true to the intentions of the car. Steering wheel movement is the quickest and most natural feedback we get from the car on its future course of action.
List of basic issues I see over and over that are a problem:
1) Roundabouts. Dual lane roundabouts are nearly impossible to get around without coaxing or it doing something wrong.
2) Follows too closely on 7-2 or any distance you set for that matter FSD City Streets. Seems like there is no difference and setting has zero effect. Literally less than a second easily behind a car at high speeds, 55-70mph...it's a bit crazy and unnerving. Get on the Highway, it switches to the other stack and it opens up the gap normally for a 7. Maybe even a bit close for my taste as well with 7 on highway stack.
3) Car won't slow down with manual wheel speed reduction 55-60mph+ on FSD City driving Beta. I see traffic slowing 1/2 mile ahead, I can spin the wheel and set speed down to 15mph at 60mph...and the car will barely, it at all, slow down, it just keeps barreling ahead.
4) Odd lane changing behavior, supposed to turn left in a mile, was in left lane, car kept wanting to get in the middle lane for some reason, kept cancelling it over and over.
Today I probably had to report about 10 video/captures in what was like a 3.7 mile drive, it was that bad. So many things gone wrong.
5) 3 lane wide highway 55mph speed limit. Car wouldn't make a right turn until there was absolutely no cars...even if it was a single car in the far left lane, it wouldn't even go into the right lane, which there is also a right turn lane, making it 4 lanes wide...waited like 2 minutes for all cars to go by and then it went...then darn near smashed into the cars at the light when it finally figured out it should slow down. On chill, 7 acc..scroll wheel down to 5mph wouldn't slow down.
1) Roundabouts. Dual lane roundabouts are nearly impossible to get around without coaxing or it doing something wrong.
2) Follows too closely on 7-2 or any distance you set for that matter FSD City Streets. Seems like there is no difference and setting has zero effect. Literally less than a second easily behind a car at high speeds, 55-70mph...it's a bit crazy and unnerving. Get on the Highway, it switches to the other stack and it opens up the gap normally for a 7. Maybe even a bit close for my taste as well with 7 on highway stack.
3) Car won't slow down with manual wheel speed reduction 55-60mph+ on FSD City driving Beta. I see traffic slowing 1/2 mile ahead, I can spin the wheel and set speed down to 15mph at 60mph...and the car will barely, it at all, slow down, it just keeps barreling ahead.
4) Odd lane changing behavior, supposed to turn left in a mile, was in left lane, car kept wanting to get in the middle lane for some reason, kept cancelling it over and over.
Today I probably had to report about 10 video/captures in what was like a 3.7 mile drive, it was that bad. So many things gone wrong.
5) 3 lane wide highway 55mph speed limit. Car wouldn't make a right turn until there was absolutely no cars...even if it was a single car in the far left lane, it wouldn't even go into the right lane, which there is also a right turn lane, making it 4 lanes wide...waited like 2 minutes for all cars to go by and then it went...then darn near smashed into the cars at the light when it finally figured out it should slow down. On chill, 7 acc..scroll wheel down to 5mph wouldn't slow down.
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I couple of times today I had to intervene with the wheel, which as we all know puts us into TACC mode. In my case, I was on an incline and almost at a stop when I intervened. Surprisingly, the car started rolling backwards. It was still in D, so I think in that situation, TACC was not respecting my HOLD setting.
Yes, or their blinker. Once used, those may cause FSD Beta to slow/pause, etc. expecting the other car to slow or change lanes.
dandrewk
Active Member
It looks like 2021.36.8 (remote sentry access) is rolling out. Has anyone on beta gotten it yet? How do these "normal" updates work with the beta updates? Will beta 10.4 be a 2021.36.x, which includes remote sentry access?
To add to your question, didn't Elon say he expected 10.4 to begin rolling out thus afternoon, or did I miss a message that it was going to be delayed?
After waiting at a four-way traffic light to turn right today, my car started to proceed normally when the light changed to green. Bu then, a car was turning in from the right side of the intersection into the lane next to mine (opposite direction). At that point, my car abruptly started to turn in the wrong direction and toward the incoming car. I had a tight enough grip on the wheel that it didn't get very far at all with that little surprise!
In a separate event, the car missed a left side surface street turn-off which was needed right after making a right turn. The car attempted to re-route and follow the new route, but it was zig-zagging between the center turn lane and the left traffic lane (two lanes my direction of travel). Because of all the crazy swerving, it missed the second turn-off option too. It was ridculous enough that I took over vs. letting it play out. I think it was partly due the re-route path being so near to the turn it first missed turn and also having to use the center turn lane.
In a separate event, the car missed a left side surface street turn-off which was needed right after making a right turn. The car attempted to re-route and follow the new route, but it was zig-zagging between the center turn lane and the left traffic lane (two lanes my direction of travel). Because of all the crazy swerving, it missed the second turn-off option too. It was ridculous enough that I took over vs. letting it play out. I think it was partly due the re-route path being so near to the turn it first missed turn and also having to use the center turn lane.
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rxlawdude
Active Member
EVNow
Well-Known Member
The Beta/EAP users tend to be at least one feature update behind. So it may be a few weeks, or months, before the remote sentry feature makes it to FSD beta cars. (Or maybe Tesla has consolidated their builds and there won't be as much lag going forward.)
Nope, not today and not delayed. Elon said it would be next Friday:
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