MASTER THREAD: FSD Subscription Available 16 Jul 2021

[Knightshade]

Good catch

Pretty concerning that it wasn't updated until the 11th hour, as if they had no idea it wouldn't be delivered earlier in the year.

Consider that it originally said later this year in March 2019.

Tesla perpetually believed it was going to be delivered THIS year for several years in a row.

They still likely believe that, but someone in legal finally got them to change the wording to limit future liability-- same as they did back in the original March 2019 change to remove promising anything higher than L2 at all.



Quick, super minor, correction though- this was changed in Oct 2021, not November.

Here's a story about the change from October 8th for example

Tesla's 'City Streets' Full Self-Driving Option Changes From 'Later This Year' to 'Coming Soon' - Tesla (NASDAQ:TSLA)

Tesla Inc (NASDAQ: TSLA) has been promising customers "city streets" full of self-driving vehicles for many years.

www.benzinga.com

 

[verygreen]

I wasn't aware that that was an FSD only feature.

it works in EAP too, I believe.
Either way a more funny fact is it's artificially resricted to hw3-only. But also works on hw2.x if you enable it "under the hood".

 

[EVNow]

Me too, and the chime on green light feature. Wouldn't it be great if you could buy these things a-la-carte? I have no desire to light up any of the other features.

It would be great for us. But almost no OEM wants to do that - they always want to bundle and upsell.

 

[gearchruncher]

they always want to bundle and upsell.

Even if what they are selling is not available now, is poorly defined, and "is cutting edge technology that no one has developed yet. It is taking longer than anticipated."

But almost no OEM wants to do that

Tons of OEM's sell individual options, down to front vs rear heated seats or a heads up display or traffic aware cruise control.

 

[EVNow]

Tons of OEM's sell individual options, down to front vs rear heated seats or a heads up display or traffic aware cruise control.

Various parts of ADAS ? Nope - they are all bundled. Not just that you may have to buy a different trim level altogether ...

See what Lucid/Rivian want to do. They sell their unspecified "semi-autonomous" feature for $9k, to be delivered at an unspecified future date.

 

[Knightshade]

Or GM- where Supercruise requires picking vehicle trims a minimum of $15,000-$25,000 higher just to have the ABILITY to option Supercruise onto the vehicle at all.

Then after 3 years there's a monthly fee on top.


Well- there was... last I read GM isn't actually selling Supercruise at all due to chip shortages.

At least Tesla will let you add FSD to any new vehicle regardless of trim level. Even better, you can do it years after you buy the car if you wish, while with GM if you didn't buy it at purchase time you're SOL.

 

[gearchruncher]

At least Tesla will let you add FSD to any new vehicle regardless of trim level.

It's not a product Tesla has for sale

To be clear, what Tesla will let you buy for $12,000 is Navigate On Autopilot. Highway Lane Change, AutoPark, Summon, and Traffic light and Stop sign control, and some undefined "CSA" at some future point (with no specific date ever promised). Tesla is not selling actual FSD like the name implies, as you pointed out.

You're making fun of GM for not delivering Supercruise while Tesla hasn't delivered CSA for 3+ years now despite charging people for it with a "coming this year" written statement. "At least" GM won't take your money for something they haven't even developed yet and don't even have a product description for.

 

[Knightshade]

To be clear, what Tesla will let you buy for $12,000 is Navigate On Autopilot. Highway Lane Change, AutoPark, Summon, and Traffic light and Stop sign control, and some undefined "CSA" at some future point (with no specific date ever promised)

Right, the name of that package is FSD.

. Tesla is not selling actual FSD like the name implies, as you pointed out.

You are again just outright lying about what I wrote.

The quote "not a product that is for sale" is the UNFINIISHED BETA software. Which is NOT listed among the things you get for $12,000.


You've even been called out on this specific lie already- and yet keep telling it.

Here's a link to the LAST time I had to call you out for this....all the way back in... *checks notes* yesterday.

MASTER THREAD: FSD Subscription Available 16 Jul 2021

Tesla, 2019, 2020, 2021, on the "Full Self Driving Capability" checkout page: "Coming This Year: Autosteer on city streets:" Tesla never promised anything, and you got literally what you paid for? It got delayed because of unforeseen circumstances. You will get it as soon as it is available.

teslamotorsclub.com

Why do you seem unable to have an honest discussion about this?

 

[gearchruncher]

The quote "not a product that is for sale" is the UNFINIISHED BETA software. Which is NOT listed among the things you get for $12,000.

Correct. And as I keep pointing out, the only thing that IS listed is City Streets Autosteer. Not FSD. So FSD is not a product for sale.

So it has nothing to do with a finished beta or not. Literally every AP feature is in BETA- this has not stopped Tesla from delivering it as part of the base car (Base AP) or delivering it to people that did pay for "FSD" such as summon. Tesla does not say when you check out that you will receive CSA "when it's out of beta." Tesla has already recognized revenue on tons of AP features that are in beta- so why would a customer believe exiting Beta is the unique threshold for when they become owed something? Show me where Tesla advertises that you will get ALL features currently seen in the FSD beta once it's out of beta.

You won't find it, because they don't mention FSD at all- which is why I was agreeing that FSD is NOT A PRODUCT FOR SALE. What is for sale is CSA- which is completely undefined, but is very specifically NOT FSD. If it was FSD (whatever that is) they would use the term "FSD coming soon" not "CSA coming soon." But as has been mentioned, they are being very purposely obtuse here on what you are owed to keep them out of future trouble.

Are you claiming that if you pay $12K, you are guaranteed everything in the FSD beta once it's out of beta? If so, show me where Tesla says that, in the very clear contract you believe exists when you pay $12K for FSD in two taps in the app. If not, it appears we are in full agreement- FSD (beta or not) is not a product (or promise of a future product) you can buy from Tesla right now.

The main confusion is that Tesla will only even consider giving FSD beta to people that have bought CSA. So it "feels" like those people bought FSD beta, but in reality they bought CSA, and Tesla then just used that group to run a lottery on for FSD beta (which could be revoked at any time, permanently, because you didn't buy it, you bought CSA).

 

[MP3Mike]

You won't find it, because they don't mention FSD at all- which is why I was agreeing that FSD is NOT A PRODUCT FOR SALE. What is for sale is CSA- which is completely undefined, but is very specifically NOT FSD. If it was FSD (whatever that is) they would use the term "FSD coming soon" not "CSA coming soon." But as has been mentioned, they are being very purposely obtuse here on what you are owed to keep them out of future trouble.

But FSD is for sale, and is listed on their site when placing an order. It is a package of features:

And "Autosteer on city streets" is the only feature in that package that isn't currently available.

 

[Knightshade]

Correct. And as I keep pointing out, the only thing that IS listed is City Streets Autosteer. Not FSD. So FSD is not a product for sale.

Except, of course, FSD is a product for sale.

The unfinished beta code is not.

Those are different things.

As you've had explained to you over and over again and keep doubling down your dishonest posts about each time.



Anybody left in the thread think this guy isn't being massively dishonest on purpose at this point?

Are you claiming that if you pay $12K, you are guaranteed everything in the FSD beta once it's out of beta?

The FSDbeta is not a finished commercial product.

It's not mentioned, at all, on the website, let alone as part of your purchase.

So no, nobody is claiming that.

Nobody HAS claimed that.

It's yet another dishonest strawman you've fake-acted-confused about and been repeatedly called out on.

The main confusion is that

...you are still posting even after having your dishonest claims repeatedly debunked.

 

[KArnold]

And "Autosteer on city streets" is the only feature in that package that isn't currently available.

Not sure you've tried Summon or Auto Park lately. I don't consider these to actually work. Maybe someday, but not now.

 

[EVNow]

Not sure you've tried Summon or Auto Park lately. I don't consider these to actually work. Maybe someday, but not now.

I believe the new parallel parking is no good.

But perpendicular parking works perfectly. It may not be the fastest, but it's better than new drivers (or me when it comes to backup parking). It has a learning curve but hardly rocket science

 

[gearchruncher]

Except, of course, FSD is a product for sale.

And as you have said, FSD is the NAME of the product. Which means nothing. Only the actual feature list matters. Which @MP3Mike just posted.

The totality of those features do not make a car drive itself from point A to point B, the notional purpose of the FSD beta we see posted on Youtube. They don't even suggest that the car can make a turn at a stop sign, as autosteer does not do that on highways, so it is logical it won't on city streets. So what is in Tesla's "FSD Beta" doesn't have to have ANYTHING to do with what they release when they do release the last feature on the list- Autosteer on city streets. The confusion is you keep acting like FSD beta has anything to do with anything. It doesn't. As you say, it's not a commercial product. It doesn't exist. Nobody can buy it. Ignore it. It's just a lottery if you get it, and it's just a temporary toy if you do.

They can delete FSD beta (which isn't for sale) from everyone's cars, slap on something much reduced called CSA that the manual says can be used on city streets, and be done. The features of CSA can be whatever they want, since it was never defined beyond a name (which means nothing). Then they can introduce "Ludacris Self Driving Capability," price it independently, and tell you you have to have that in order to get what was in the FSD beta, and those features are "coming soon." They also don't have to upgrade any hardware in your car to LSDC, given they only told you your car was capable of FSD when it was sold, not LSDC, because LSDC wasn't even a thing when they sold you the car (sounds a lot like an argument about how FSD subscriptions don't get free hardware needed despite being identical software).

Tesla doesn't ever have to release "finished" "FSD beta" code to pre 3/19 buyers to complete their feature set, just something called CSA. Tell me why Tesla couldn't do this to a buyer today and be 100% in their rights.

 

[Daniel in SD]

And as you have said, FSD is the NAME of the product. Which means nothing. Only the actual feature list matters. Which @MP3Mike just posted.
View attachment 769116

The totality of those features do not make a car drive itself from point A to point B, the notional purpose of the FSD beta we see posted on Youtube. They don't even suggest that the car can make a turn at a stop sign, as autosteer does not do that on highways, so it is logical it won't on city streets. So what is in Tesla's "FSD Beta" doesn't have to have ANYTHING to do with what they release when they do release the last feature on the list- Autosteer on city streets. The confusion is you keep acting like FSD beta has anything to do with anything. It doesn't. As you say, it's not a commercial product. It doesn't exist. Nobody can buy it. Ignore it. It's just a lottery if you get it, and it's just a temporary toy if you do.

They can delete FSD beta (which isn't for sale) from everyone's cars, slap on something much reduced called CSA that the manual says can be used on city streets, and be done. The features of CSA can be whatever they want, since it was never defined beyond a name (which means nothing). Then they can introduce "Ludacris Self Driving Capability," price it independently, and tell you you have to have that in order to get what was in the FSD beta, and those features are "coming soon." They also don't have to upgrade any hardware in your car to LSDC, given they only told you your car was capable of FSD when it was sold, not LSDC, because LSDC wasn't even a thing when they sold you the car (sounds a lot like an argument about how FSD subscriptions don't get free hardware needed despite being identical software).

Tesla doesn't ever have to release "finished" "FSD beta" code to pre 3/19 buyers to complete their feature set, just something called CSA. Tell me why Tesla couldn't do this to a buyer today and be 100% in their rights.

You've forgotten about FSD "V2" which became available 3/19 and included a feature called "Automatic driving on city streets". "Autosteer on city streets" is FSD "V3"
Haters need to get their facts straight.

Tesla says 'Automatic driving on city streets' including responding to traffic lights/stop signs coming this year

Tesla today, along with the $35,000 Model 3 and other goodies, announced it would be taking Autopilot to the next...

electrek.co

Here goes Tesla proving the naysayers wrong again. At some point later this year, it sounds like you’ll be able to autopilot from a Summon in a parking lot to the other side of the country without making a move on the wheel.

 

[Knightshade]

And as you have said, FSD is the NAME of the product.

Which is why you sound so ridiculous when you claim they don't sell FSD.

Which means nothing. Only the actual feature list matters.

...what?

The named product includes a description of what it means. You even quoted it. So yes it means something. They list the something right under the name.


You've had this explained to you. Repeatedly. Exhaustively.

It's not credible that any of this is news.

Nor is it credible you're making a sincere argument here.

You're trolling.

Poorly.


I didn't bother quoting the next couple dozen lines of you either making up new names for things, or misquoting or misunderstanding everything it's clear you entirely understand.

Come back when you get some new material.

 

[gearchruncher]

gearchruncher said:
Which means nothing. Only the actual feature list matters.

The named product includes a description of what it means. You even quoted it. So yes it means something. They list the something right under the name.

I'm the one being disingenuous? You're the one screaming how I'm trolling while telling me exactly what I said is correct. Saying something loudly does not make your observation more factual or insightful.

The Name "FSD" doesn't mean anything or indicate any kind of capability. The feature list does. And the only thing in the feature list is CSA, not FSD. Nobody buying "FSD" should expect FSD- only CSA.

I notice you keep skipping answering if you agree that Tesla doesn't owe anyone post 3/19 anything besides ill defined CSA, instead preferring to claim you have transparently described things over and that everyone knows it already.

So, does Tesla owe more than CSA?

 

[Knightshade]

I'm the one being disingenuous?

And being really obvious about it too.

And the only thing in the feature list is CSA, not FSD. Nobody buying "FSD" should expect FSD- only CSA.

Again you're babblng nonsensically.

First you admit FSD is just the name.

Then tell everyone you're not getting FSD when you buy FSD.

FSD is the product name

So yes, you absolutely get FSD when you buy FSD

by definition


What you've done is invented some OTHER meaning of the thing Tesla sells as FSD, that does not remotely match the actual product description, then spent months (maybe years by now) ranting how this imaginary thing in your head isn't what you get, even though it tells you, in writing, and you've quoted the writing, what the "FSD" package actually does get you when you buy it.

Then you keep acting SHOCKED JUST SHOCKED that you get exactly what the description says instead of this fictional definition of the product you invented.


Again it's like ranting YOU DO NOT ACTUALLY GET MADE HAPPY WHEN YOU BUY A HAPPY MEAL! CAN YOU BELIEVE IT?!

I
I notice you keep skipping answering if you agree that Tesla doesn't owe anyone post 3/19 anything besides ill defined CSA

Your observation skills continue to be almost as poor as your trolling skills.

I directly, clearly, explained this, in detail, multiple times.

As recently as like 2 days ago, in direct reply to another troll posts of yours.

In fact I linked that post again, in direct reply to you, 10 posts ago in this thread

Because you'd just been dishonest about Yet Another Thing that was also in that reply. But conveniently it also contains the evidence you're lying about this item too since I directly addressed that question there.



Again- you need new material.

You're not even waiting 24 hours now after people debunk your claims before pretending nobody ever addressed the same tired nonsense you've been babbling for way too long now.

 

[Electroman]

Tesla could have saved all these heartburns, and teeth gnashing from the regulators and detractors alike if only had they chosen a different name than the misleading, 'Full Self Driving" for a product that is 'Future Full Self Driving (FFSD)".

 

[gearchruncher]

So yes, you absolutely get FSD when you buy FSD

by definition


What you've done is invented some OTHER meaning of the thing Tesla sells as FSD, that does not remotely match the actual product description, then spent months (maybe years by now) ranting how this imaginary thing in your head isn't what you get, even though it tells you, in writing, and you've quoted the writing, what the "FSD" package actually does get you when you buy it.

Then you keep acting SHOCKED JUST SHOCKED that you get exactly what the description says instead of this fictional definition of the product you invented.

Ok, so we are 100% agreed. When you buy FSD, you get FSD. It's just that you cannot assume what "Full Self Driving Capability" does from the name. Only the product description. The product description includes only one non-released feature. City Streets Autosteer.

Now, since we agree "Full Self Driving" is just a name, and does not imply any functionality due to that name, we have an issue with what is "City Streets Autosteer" given that is just a name as well. Many people are confused by the FSD name, assuming they will eventually get functions seen in the FSD beta, so it's logical to assume confusion could happen over what "CSA" is expected to be.

Can you point to specific behaviors or functions that Tesla has promised when they deliver "City Streets Autosteer?" Or is it just another empty envelope?