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Those are approximate. We know they can vary to some degree. Look at the model 3 itself, the Panasonic variant of the battery had a mid-cycle update to have increased capacity (75 kWh -> 82 kWh) despite the same number of batteries and using an NCA chemistry.
Currently the Model S has the highest density of those
Yes there are many things that can be done, but not within the S' form factor. They reduced the battery capacity for a reason when they were going for a higher capability car.
You’ll have to show some evidence for the first statement since your argument is evolving, and I still can’t tell WTH you’re trying to say.
The second statement is patently false using your own example of the lucid air, as mentioned. As usual you are willing to give every benefit of the doubt to every manufacturer other than Tesla. This is the underlying theme.
I'm saying of the batteries Tesla currently produces, the S has the highest density cells. That argument hasn't changed.
For your next point... Are you saying the lucid air and model S are engineered exactly the same and have the exact same form factor for their chassis and batteries? Tesla just straight up doesn't have the room to squeeze in more cells while maintaining the same heat dissipation.
Just wrote this message to the Tesla rep in the app...
"Hello, wanted to touch base to see if my vehicle is still being produced. Hoping to get some information on vin assignment if you have it. Also wanted to share my estimated delivery dates so far ... And I guess they will probably continue to get pushed up.
Dec23
Dec 24
Jan 5
Jan 28
Feb 1
Feb 6
Feb 16
Feb 22.. Today
This has been a nightmare experience with Tesla to say the least
This was their response, not expecting it to go anywhere positive
"Hello, wanted to touch base to see if my vehicle is still being produced. Hoping to get some information on vin assignment if you have it. Also wanted to share my estimated delivery dates so far ... And I guess they will probably continue to get pushed up.
Dec23
Dec 24
Jan 5
Jan 28
Feb 1
Feb 6
Feb 16
Feb 22.. Today
This has been a nightmare experience with Tesla to say the least
This was their response, not expecting it to go anywhere positive
Nobody has "the room to squeeze in more cells" - they all maximize the volume of space available.
Let's recap.
1. In your reliably Tesla-sucks-at-everything approach, you said Tesla cannot do a 500 mile range car. I said they all use the same energy density chemistries, and it's a choice between range & weight.
2. You said Lucid somehow has more range. I pointed out Lucid a 20% larger battery.
3. You said their batteries are more energy dense. I said the chemistry is the same, but yes the 21700 cells are indeed larger. They are also taken from the 3/Y. So again, Lucid not better.
4. You said bigger batteries means lower amperage. I said in your Lucid example, Sapphire has a bigger battery and higher amperage.
5. You finally said "Yes there are many things that can be done, but not within the S' form factor. They reduced the battery capacity for a reason when they were going for a higher capability car." and the point you didn't understand is that is, again in your Lucid example, the Air base level uses 21700 cells arranged in 18 modules. The high end high range cars use the same cells arranged in 22 modules. That's all they can fit. They have maximized the space. Yet in Sapphire they maintained the 22 modules but got 6 kWh more with a battery chemistry tweak. So this disproves your theory that a maxed out volumetric space precludes any further battery range gains.
Finally, why do you think Tesla continues to use the 18650 cells? I'm sure you think it's because Tesla can't innovate, as you always do. Does it surprise you that 18650 cells have better heat dissipation that 21700 cells? The thickness of the 21700 cells impedes heat dissipation. This is actually BETTER heat dissipation for a performance car, and a wise engineering choice for the application.
In Transit... Arriving Soon. Wishing they had like a Fedex Tracking number at this point.
They're wrong about the MSP but they probably won't realize it until the they actually try to release it.
ChiefRollo
Member
Even if Nothing cuts its price in half, I wouldn’t upgrade my old iPhone to it.
Your inability to read continues to remain I see
1) I said Tesla cannot do a 500 mile range car with their current batteries and platform. They just don't have the room to squeeze in more cells and keep the the cooling capacity necessary to support their power targets. The Plaid+ was always a lie.
2) I know Lucid has a 20% larger battery. I also know their battery pack is designed from the ground up to maintain that performance. I also believe their cells are more energy dense per unit
3) The chemistry is never 100% identical. Again you failed to comprehend what was stated in plain english, so let me dumb it down further. 2017 Model 3 Long Range: 75 kWh battery. 2021 Model 3 Long Range: 82 kWh battery. Both have 2,976 cells in the 2170 format manufactured by panasonic using an NCA-based electrolyte. The only way this is possible is if the energy density can in fact change with improved electrolytes and manufacturing processes (a little under 10% in this case)
4) I never said that. I said squeezing in more cells in the same package will make it more difficult to cool the cells to maintain the the power targets. (Additionally it is also true that there actually are lower density lithium cells out there specifically designed for high power output, but these typically aren't used in EVs)
5) Again I don't know how many more ways to state this. Tesla cannot include more cells without compromising cooling. Their older Model S battery pack did have more cells and a ~5kWh larger capacity, but could not be cooled effectively enough to deliver the power Tesla is targeting.
No it does not surprise me 18650 cells have better heat dissipation all else equal. That's simple physics. And never something I argued against. Though I don't think that's the primary reason they continue to use them in the S. It's more likely due to packaging constraints -- the floor in the S is already awkwardly high, so they'd have to do some serious reengineering to use a taller battery pack
Ok, so stupid question. SA sent me the document to esign, but not in the app. It requires 1 of 10 different digital IDs to sign, all of which are pay services. Very odd. Did your signature process require that?
quick question, have you completed your payment option in the app? I had this issue with my 22 M3P. People were getting VINs all over, but I was not. Found out that I had to complete payment option and it assigned within days.
SucreTease
Teslarian
All right, you two, that's enough! Get a room! This argument is really out of place here. Continue it in a private conversation or in the back alley.
de Vere
Member
Not a stupid question. My FSD transfer doc only required filling in the two VIN numbers (in my case the RN), my signature and name. I printed it out, filled it in, scanned it and returned it.
I think I read just fine. Let's check. You wrote"
Doesn't match what you said. You've historically revised the truth, again. They could certainly produce a car with that range.
Now that you acknowledge it's literally larger, just as I said from my very first post, its range is not so amazing after all, is it? And now that you've moved your argument from energy density per mass to per unit since I pointed out they are using the larger 21700 cells taken from the 3/Y, I hope you are more than "believing" they hold more energy per unit - they are literally larger.
But I basically agree with the rest of it. Tesla has chosen its shape of car, Lucid has chosen it's (Buick) shape. The floor in the Lucid is also very high, BTW.
On first principles, Tesla certainly has "the capability to produce a car with that range." The technology, developed by Tesla and liberally borrowed by Lucid, is not difficult. It's an engineering choice about what you want. Tesla has said they don't see a lot of value of more battery weight. I, for one, like that decision, even as a 30,000+ mile a year driver.
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rfmurphy81
Member
Yes, it was incredibly frustrating to me because all had some form of difficulties and most didn't end up being usable. I ultimately used Intesigroup because it was the only one that I could get to work. I'm not sure why they required this third party authentication. It seemed like overkill to me.
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