Model S/X Owners Have Priority Model 3 Orders Over Non-Owners

[AnOutsider]

No one said it was owed to anyone. But when someone tosses out a phrase like "mass market" or "EV for the masses", there are reasonable assumptions to be made, such as affordability, since "the masses" likely aren't rich.

I'll get mine either way, as I can afford to check some boxes on the Configurator, but if you've been following along for any period of time around here, there are plenty of people that are looking at $25,000 after credits as affordable, while $35,000 with no credits as not so affordable.

I am sure you are aware, but checking off those boxes likely means you will get your car (and thus, credit) before the working stiff that can't afford to check any boxes.

I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate any vitriol from that individual about your wealth buying you advantages

 

[labfm]

No one said it was owed to anyone. But when someone tosses out a phrase like "mass market" or "EV for the masses", there are reasonable assumptions to be made, such as affordability, since "the masses" likely aren't rich.

I'll get mine either way, as I can afford to check some boxes on the Configurator, but if you've been following along for any period of time around here, there are plenty of people that are looking at $25,000 after credits as affordable, while $35,000 with no credits as not so affordable.

No. You miss the point entirely.

YOU are making an assumption into the meaning of "mass market" or "EV for the masses" to mean 25K. If the goal was to target 25K buyers, the car wouldn't be aimed at a BMW 3 SERIES. Why is the car aimed at BMW 3 series and not a toyota camry?

Where are all these cries about BMW not making a car in the 25K range? Or Audi in the 25K range? Or Mercedes? Why are people feeling entitled to a tax credit?

People should quite frankly be happy that a good EV is going to be available for 35K without incentives. What are your other EV options for 25K? Go buy one of those instead then....

 

[ModelNforNerd]

No. You miss the point entirely.

YOU are making an assumption into the meaning of "mass market" or "EV for the masses" to mean 25K. If the goal was to target 25K buyers, the car wouldn't be aimed at a BMW 3 SERIES. Why is the car aimed at BMW 3 series and not a toyota camry?

Where are all these cries about BMW not making a car in the 25K range? Or Audi in the 25K range? Or Mercedes? Why are people feeling entitled to a tax credit?

People should quite frankly be happy that a good EV is going to be available for 35K without incentives. What are your other EV options for 25K? Go buy one of those instead then....

I'm done with this discussion.

I should remain the heartless jerk I'm usually accused of being, I see this situation as Tesla continuing the good ol' boy network of wealthy people scratching each other's backs, and yet I'm the one attacked over it.

Maybe read all of my posts in this thread. The mass market/car for the masses isn't ME thinking it should be $25K. I said it was a reasonable assumption of what "affordable" means to SOME PEOPLE...not me.....

I paid $44K for my current vehicle, because I kept checking boxes. But I'm not too far removed from a period in life where $25K for a car was a lot of money, so I was...and here's a word to look up....EMPATHIZING....with those who will have to scrape to get the $35K base model.

 

[MC33]

This is my first post as I’ve been reading these boards for the last couple of months but felt compelled to post given what I am reading on here.

I am not a S/X owner as it is in now way in my budget, but I did have the opportunity to test drive a Model S and it was simply the most amazing driving experience of my life. I will be putting my deposit down on the Model 3 on March 31st and I have ZERO issue with current model S/X owners being given priority over non-owners for a couple of reasons:

1. Without them we wouldn’t have a Model 3, I think it’s refreshing that a company reward and show loyalty to its current customers instead of just focusing solely on acquiring new customers. This should benefit everybody once they are in the Tesla club.

2. We already knew that highly optioned vehicles would be made first it’s likely that current S/X owners that put a reservation in were going to get them first anyway as they are the most likely to check all of the boxes in regards to options.

3. The idea that this contrary to a “EV for masses” is insane. For this to be adopted by the masses and to “cross the chasm” most people are not going to an EV credit barring an extension from the Feds. At best, what maybe 100-125,000 Model 3 owners get the credit in some form? That is not mass adoption what so ever. And more to the point, if you can afford to spend $40-50K on a car with options you are doing better than the masses. I will be spending more than double of what I have ever spent on a car before in order to get a nicely optioned Model 3 (AWD, cold weather package, likely larger battery) and I in no way feel entitled to a tax credit. If it happens great, if not that isn’t going to change what I am going to do.

 

[Bimbels]

Well, those who scrape for the 35K base model were waiting anyway.....they will get their car after both owners and non owners regardless - if the owners and non owners choose more options. I'm also guessing if your financials mean you must scrape for a 35K car, maybe you were never getting the full 7500 tax credit, either.

Tesla has said that higher optioned cars will deliver first. This isn't to punish the "poor" guy - it's to pay for production costs. We all know this isn't the typical car manufacturer. I expect one day that strategy won't be necessary - but it is until they start posting consistent large profits, I expect.

I get why people are upset. There was going to be no way to make everyone happy. If they hadn't done this, there would be owners (many if not most of whom are also shareholders, BTW) up in arms because they didn't do what they have done every other time. Tesla is doing what they have always done - allow owners to go first. Except in this case, they placed the caveat about higher options. It's all about them recouping costs.

 

[MiamiNole]

No. You miss the point entirely.

YOU are making an assumption into the meaning of "mass market" or "EV for the masses" to mean 25K. If the goal was to target 25K buyers, the car wouldn't be aimed at a BMW 3 SERIES. Why is the car aimed at BMW 3 series and not a toyota camry?

Where are all these cries about BMW not making a car in the 25K range? Or Audi in the 25K range? Or Mercedes? Why are people feeling entitled to a tax credit?

People should quite frankly be happy that a good EV is going to be available for 35K without incentives. What are your other EV options for 25K? Go buy one of those instead then....

Regardless of at what point one defines a car as being "affordable", I'd think that ANYONE would have a right to be reasonably upset that they could possibly lose out on a $7500 tax credit based on a single decision regarding reservation priorities. "People should quite frankly be happy that a good EV is going to be available for 35K without incentives" is, to me, a very snooty response to being upset about potentially missing out on a tax incentive that actually exists today. I've seen responses ranging from "well I've worked hard to be able to afford an S/X" to "you people shouldn't feel entitled". Yet, the bigger picture is that a number of Model 3 enthusiasts may not be able to take advantage of a federal tax incentive that is currently available to everyone based on a single decision.

Best case is that this could be much ado about nothing and everyone who reserves on the first day or two gets to eventually take advantage of said tax credit. BUT, there is a great unknown when you take into account delivery priorities, reservation priorities, amount of Model S/X's sold between now and the start of Model 3 deliveries, etc. I'd at least to see Tesla formally address this at some point rather than having one group of people tell another "you shouldn't feel entitled". Otherwise, you should expect to see a great deal of anxiety regarding this topic.

 

[rnelsonee]

As much as I really want that credit, note that the credit is outside of Tesla's control. They've hammered the point that cost is the driving factor for the Model 3, and I believe them. The Model 3 is (likely) the best Tesla can do to get a car to the masses, while still meeting their range/performance goals. It's not like they can just wish a $25,000 car into existence.

And while some (like me) think $35,000 is a lot for a car, note it's just slightly above the average price for a new car now. Add in the fact that there's an EV premium (an EV propulsion system simply costs more than an ICE system for the same range) and $35,000 looks like a decent deal. Heck, the only comparable car to the Model 3 (based on what little we know) is the upcoming Bolt, which is expected to be $37,500, and I'd bet most of us here won't even consider the Bolt once we see the Model 3. And if you really want your car for the masses, there's your choice - shipping later this year and guaranteed to get the tax credit.

I would love for campers and early-store line waiters got first dibs, but I'm not going to fault Tesla too much for rewarding current owners. I don't just want an EV for the masses, I want a Tesla. Waiting is just part and parcel of it.

 

[AudubonB]

If this issue is important to Tesla Motors - although I am not sure it is - there is one way they can proceed that will level the platform, and that is to emulate what we do at our lodge. I'll spell it out in generic terms, however.

An item has a putative cost of $X. Most customers ("A") are exposed to a state sales tax, so if that's 10% they pay $1.1X
Some customers ("B") have tax-free status (for example, state employees). Unadjusted, they would, of course, pay $X.

There are two ways to proceed so that all pay the same amount. One can:
*Increase the price of the good to "B" customers to 1.1X, or
*Decrease the price of the good to "A" customers to 0.90909X

Should Tesla proceed in analogous fashion? That is, so that those who can and those who cannot take advantage of the tax credit be treated so that all have a final payment of the same amount? Could it do so?

In order so to proceed, Tesla would need to know the tax filing status of its customers up to the point they achieve the production cap. Remember, the $7,500 tax credit itself is not a fixed amount - there is a sliding scale from 0 to 7500. Some of the Model 3-buying public obviously won't meet the minimum criteria necessary for the credit to begin to kick in; others obviously will be able to take advantage of the entire amount.....and many others won't know until they file their tax returns where in the middle they are. In order equitably to proceed, Tesla probably would have to be prepared to send some kind of rebate after April 15 of the following year....


Yecch. But I thought I'd throw out and explore the idea.

 

[LagunaHJames]

I was very grateful to receive this email. I don't tweet very often but a month ago I tweeted to Elon that those of us who supported Tesla early on should get some preferential treatment in ordering Model 3 for family members. I am coming up on 3 years with my Model S and almost to 49,000 miles. It is the best car I have ever owned but back when I took delivery there was really no supercharger or service network. It was more than double what I had ever paid for a car. My wife currently drives a Fiat 500e on a lease and I will be reserving a Model 3 for her.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

If this issue is important to Tesla Motors - although I am not sure it is - there is one way they can proceed that will level the platform, and that is to emulate what we do at our lodge. I'll spell it out in generic terms, however.

An item has a putative cost of $X. Most customers ("A") are exposed to a state sales tax, so if that's 10% they pay $1.1X
Some customers ("B") have tax-free status (for example, state employees). Unadjusted, they would, of course, pay $X.

There are two ways to proceed so that all pay the same amount. One can:
*Increase the price of the good to "B" customers to 1.1X, or
*Decrease the price of the good to "A" customers to 0.90909X

Should Tesla proceed in analogous fashion? That is, so that those who can and those who cannot take advantage of the tax credit be treated so that all have a final payment of the same amount? Could it do so?

In order so to proceed, Tesla would need to know the tax filing status of its customers up to the point they achieve the production cap. Remember, the $7,500 tax credit itself is not a fixed amount - there is a sliding scale from 0 to 7500. Some of the Model 3-buying public obviously won't meet the minimum criteria necessary for the credit to begin to kick in; others obviously will be able to take advantage of the entire amount.....and many others won't know until they file their tax returns where in the middle they are. In order equitably to proceed, Tesla probably would have to be prepared to send some kind of rebate after April 15 of the following year....


Yecch. But I thought I'd throw out and explore the idea.

The problem here is that the federal EV Tax Credit doesn't care how many Tesla drivers file for/qualify for the credit, it goes by vehicles sold. So, for example, Tesla #200,000 leaves the factory at the end of 2017, it's not going to matter to future buyers that only (200,000-x) qualified for the tax credit.

 

[Bimbels]

If this issue is important to Tesla Motors - although I am not sure it is - there is one way they can proceed that will level the platform, and that is to emulate what we do at our lodge. I'll spell it out in generic terms, however.

An item has a putative cost of $X. Most customers ("A") are exposed to a state sales tax, so if that's 10% they pay $1.1X
Some customers ("B") have tax-free status (for example, state employees). Unadjusted, they would, of course, pay $X.

There are two ways to proceed so that all pay the same amount. One can:
*Increase the price of the good to "B" customers to 1.1X, or
*Decrease the price of the good to "A" customers to 0.90909X

Should Tesla proceed in analogous fashion? That is, so that those who can and those who cannot take advantage of the tax credit be treated so that all have a final payment of the same amount? Could it do so?

In order so to proceed, Tesla would need to know the tax filing status of its customers up to the point they achieve the production cap. Remember, the $7,500 tax credit itself is not a fixed amount - there is a sliding scale from 0 to 7500. Some of the Model 3-buying public obviously won't meet the minimum criteria necessary for the credit to begin to kick in; others obviously will be able to take advantage of the entire amount.....and many others won't know until they file their tax returns where in the middle they are. In order equitably to proceed, Tesla probably would have to be prepared to send some kind of rebate after April 15 of the following year....


Yecch. But I thought I'd throw out and explore the idea.

You are right. But I do not believe Tesla is under any obligation to give any rebates to those who may not get their car in time. They are not obligated to do anything other than selling you the car. It is your choice if you buy it or not. The only other choice at the time of release will be the bolt - which is even more than the 3 base price. And I'm sure will pale in comparison. But there one might still be able to get the credit if it is that important.

I think this energy would be better directed at getting the tax credit extended - though there has already been a lengthy thread on that, too, with differing opinions. I have already written my Senator, I'm sure in vain (even though he is a good environmentalist.)

 

[EinSV]

As a non-employee and non-S or X owner (sadly!) I think Tesla has their priorities exactly right. Rewarding the folks who have worked so hard to transform the auto industry by letting them jump to the front of the line seems like a no-brainer to me. And rewarding the "early adopters" who had the faith to invest in a Model S or X also seems fair.

I'll be a little bummed if I miss out on the tax credit, but I think the right people for folks to direct those complaints to are your local member of Congress/Senator. It makes no sense to punish the company that is leading the way on electric cars (Tesla) by giving an advantage to its laggard competitors. The playing field should be leveled by phasing out (or reducing) the tax credit industry wide over time, rather than by company-by-company.

 

[Bimbels]

The playing field should be leveled by phasing out (or reducing) the tax credit industry wide over time, rather than by company-by-company.

I agree 100% with this. I think the credit should last until a certain percentage of EVs are on US roads. Regardless of manufacturer.

 

[igotzzoom]

The delay for "regular guys" is going on the assumption that every current S/X owner will also want to buy a Model 3. I would guess less than half do. I understand Tesla wanting to give them priority as a "thank you," but Tesla can't afford to alienate too many mainstream buyers. I think they're counting on such off-the-charts hype and anticipation, that it'll easily overcome any negative publicity. Well, the Chevy Bolt has always been a contingency for me, and I may end up getting it, if it looks like deliveries for non-owner reservations won't happen until late '18. Still going to be watching developments on 3/31/ and 4/1 very closely.

 

[sports4eva115]

Deliveries will probably be prioritized in this order:

1. Region/geography
2. Options
3. Model S/X Owners
4. Reservation Date

This this this. It makes the more sense and allows Tesla to get model 3's on the roads asap for the lowest cost.
Thinking about this overnight though I'll have to swallow my comment about being ok with this prioritization. It's more about the message it sends. Sure, I agree that previous owners helped fund the development of the model 3, but if that's why Tesla is allowing this prioritization, why don't they go ahead and throw shareholders in there too? or government officials who helped pass the loan? It just seems like with this, they'll cause quite a bit of upset from people who supported the company by other means than buying a car, as if that's the only thing that mattered.
Regardless, current owners will gloat and condemn non-owners for complaining, and non-owners will rage and accuse "rich" current owners. It's inevitable. Before this, pretty much no current owners were complaining about not being put in as priority. Why? BECAUSE THEY HAVE AMAZING CARS ALREADY. it sends to wrong message to deliver cars to those who don't really need it first rather than to those who were banking on trading in their old ICE cars and joining the EV era. It's a massive blow to those who were going to camp outside the Tesla store like true fanatics for a chance at the incentive that, in reality, they need a lot more than current owners who were able to afford a car that's almost a decade of my rent.

 

[Muaddid]

The more I think about it, the more I think it's a bad idea... a Model S/X owner who wants to buy a Model 3 has enough money to check all the options to get in front if he wants and that's fine, thats more profit for Tesla. There was no need to have a second layer of priority...

 

[uselesslogin]

We would not be getting Model 3s if it weren't for those wealthier than us buying the Model S/X. They can have my place in line. I am just grateful the car actually exists.

 

[MC33]

We would not be getting Model 3s if it weren't for those wealthier than us buying the Model S/X. They can have my place in line. I am just grateful the car actually exists.

This!

 

[Muaddid]

We would not be getting Model 3s if it weren't for those wealthier than us buying the Model S/X. They can have my place in line. I am just grateful the car actually exists.

Valid for the Model S buyers in 2012/2013... the ones who ordered two weeks ago ? not really, but where do you draw the line ?
This wasn't really needed either... I had not heard any Model S/X owner complain they werent getting special threatment prior to this... because they have a great car already !

 

[uselesslogin]

Valid for the Model S buyers in 2012/2013... the ones who ordered two weeks ago ? not really, but where do you draw the line ?
This wasn't really needed either... I had not heard any Model S/X owner complain they werent getting special threatment prior to this... because they have a great car already !

Well, they plan on self-funding $1.5 billion in CapEx this year so basically current buyers are still funding CapEx to hit Model 3 production. Also, I agree, where do you draw the line? So, I guess you just don't draw it. Although many obviously don't agree.