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Discussion in 'The UK and Ireland' started by Dan43, Dec 21, 2015.
Exciting stuff Afdyce, can I ask when you placed your order ? Thanks
Be interested to hear what your thought process was on buying 60 whilst contemplating a possible range-upgrade.
I ordered 85 and it was discontinued during my lead-time. I was offered taking delivery of 85 immediately, downgrade to 75 or upgrade to 90 (and keeping original delivery date). During my original order deliberations I had ruled out the 90 as "too few extra miles for the additional cost" ... I deliberated long and hard ... and in the end decided on the 90. Of course now, months later, the additional cost is forgotten ...
What I find is that:
The 90 charges faster than the 85 (during the 10% - 60%-ish range). That's not an issue for software limited 60/75 of course.
The extra range is handy, but hard to quantify.
Of course the extra range, in my case, is just a handful of miles, and has never made the difference between making-it and not. When i first had the car I would Supercharge "more than I needed", a) just to be sure and b) because it was free (yeah, I was getting a couple of quid for sitting in a parking lot for an hour ... go figure!). Then first time I charged with my wife she said "Boring, when can we leave" and I said "I would like to have 10% buffer" so that's what we did - the moment SatNav said I would arrive with 10% buffer she was all but leaping out of the car to unplug! Of course I had read people saying "charge just enough", but it took me a couple of goes before I got comfortable with that.
What typically happens is that I get held up on the route - roadworks, traffic, whatever, so I wind up doing a few 10's of miles at below cruising speed, the buffer-on-arrival creeps up a bit, and I hoof it more on the sections where the road is clear until arrival-buffer falls below 10% again
But there have been times when that has not been the case and I've got home with 7% or whatever. But I haven't slowed down, as once I got close-ish to home my confidence in the prediction was good, so I pressed on. There was a small risk of a diversion, but unlikely to be 15 miles (which is about what 7% would get me). I think I would still need that comfort-buffer, whatever size battery I had, and that 20-25 miles of comfort becomes a bigger percentage the smaller the battery.
I've also had a couple of occasions where I had to go out-of-my-way. One time we met up somewhere en route, left the other car there, and then on the way home sailed past it! I had to drive an extra 20 miles to next exit, and back again, and predicted arrival-SoC was very low. I drove at 60 MPH for a bit, it crept up a bit and then I resumed at 75 MPH or so.
So even that 5% extra that i bought has given me more "comfort". I would imagine that teh extra 15% on a 60-75 upgrade would be significant. Whilst I am allowing 10% arrival-buffer I suppose in practice that is 20-25 miles. Range of the 60 @ 350wH/m is about 171 as against 214 for the 70, so 15% as against 11-12%, and I think that that, in practice, may be quite a difference ... but only for a couple of times a year, and there's the rub
I do 25,000 miles a year though ... that may be a completely different requirement-profile to a "town car"
Tis the season to be jolly...
8 Weeks of looking at the message boards every day.
Tanfaldo I think it was £6500 or an extra £500 if ordered later. However as discussed in the previous posts if the costs reflects the price increase then it wont be anythink like this. Once I have a clear answer from Tesla I will advise so anyone in the UK with a 60 MX on order but not actually made yet can decide if it effects anything for them.
WannabeOwner thanks for that well written and honest explanation of your findings since purchase on the model if range is your main focus. I am sure all Tesla lovers would like to have the biggest battery car however as the car buy price is already obscene I new I would have to make some compromise if I was to order. Ideally I would like to have ordered a 90D but even at the time I ordered it was just a little to much for my comfort at an extra 20k. I don't want to buy car I cant really afford. So the 75D had been the goal and I wanted to be able to spec it exactly how I wanted it. I had taken a test drive in the S for my birthday in February with all the family and loved it but the problem was NO TOWBAR???? WHY sorry pet annoyance. So I told Tesla we couldn't really make a decision till we had seen the X. After seeing the car briefly at Goodwood Festival of Speed in a seven seat config and enduring the hell of kids kicking me in the back whilst moving my seat as I sat in it I new a proper viewing in a show room was required to make any real assement. After being contacted by Tesal in July I took the whole family up to Weybridge to see the car. This time it was peace and quiet, the whole show room to ourselves and the car in the 6 seat config which made all the difference. We all loved it and before I knew it my wife was offer discussing the details with once of the sales guys. We pretty much agreed on everything and the new option of the 60D was very appealing as it would mean less company car tax and I could drive it for a while and see if the range was sufficient. The upgrade to a 75 was reasonable and could be done at any time and a very small penalty for not buying at the time of purchase.
Ok I got the numbers today if anyone has a 60D X on order and wants to change it to a 75D now before its made we can upgrade for an extra £7800 ok so I did some basic maths. original base buy price £64100 + £2200 for air suspension (SAS is now built into cost price of all cars) so £66300 I can pay £7800 extra and get the 75D for £74100 , he didn't specify and I will ask for qualification of the price to upgrade after taking delivery but the base price right now of a 75D X is £82000 which is a huge £7900 more and that's not taking into account any extra penalty if you purchase after delivery. I will get the accurate figure tomorrow once he responds to my email but I would expect it to be an extra £16700 which I cant see myself paying.
So I think I need to have a serious discussion with my wife tonight as those numbers make not buying the upgrade pointless as you will almost pay double later if you leave it. I will get the confirmation from Tesla on the after sale upgrade price tomorrow but if you are buying a 60D X and had planned to upgrade later then you really need to take this into consideration I certainly am.
Nice post cookielovers, I am in the same position as you so this information is extremely interesting to say the least !
The other thing I am trying to figure out is when the order was originally placed was there a price quoted to upgrade to a 75 during ownership, in the back of my mind I seem to remember that there was? If that is the case that would be surely ring fenced ?
Just having a further cogitation and would Tesla really charge £16700 to upgrade from a 60 to a 75 during ownership ? Would any 60 owner in there right mind pay that?? Would Tesla realistically even think an owner would pay such a premium for 30 miles of extra range?? I'm sure the maths of cost per mile of extra range would be an interesting calculation??
Hi Tan, thanks for your input. As I mentioned I havnt had a definitive answer on price after having taken possesion. I expect an answer on Tuesday so will report back. I discussed it all with my wife who wasn't having a bar of my suggestion that we really needed to reconsider buying the upgrade now as if the cost was reflective of current price it just wouldn't happen. She did counter with a good point that the 60 will likely have even more demand from people like us who couldn't stretch that far and isn't available anymore. Certainly the lifetime supercharging will help resale prices. More importantly I have watched several times a really good YouTube video from Tesla Bjorn who has a lot of experience and he overwelmingly recommends the value of the 60D as we can charge to 100% all the time and it's fast charging all the way. He also states you get regenerative breaking immediately as the battery isn't really full thus more consistent and better. I have placed a link it's well worth watching
Thanks Cookielovers. Coincidently I watched the same video last night! I agree The 60 definitely looks excellent value when taking everything into account.
I also spoke with my wife last night and we have come to the conclusion we are going to stick to the 60. For our personnel circumstances Paying £7800 doesn't make any financial sense to upgrade. The extra range will only be required a couple of times a year .
We are planning on keeping the car for 5 years or more but if we do unexpectedly decide to sell early I agree that residuals should be very good . Our timing Buying a 60 now represents an entry point of around £15000 lower based on current prices which must reflect positively in the used car market in future years . For example in 3 years time if you wanted to purchase a used model X I wonder what the difference in values will be between the 60 and 75? Would anyone realistically pay much more than let's say £5000 premium for an extra 30 miles of range ? Personnely I don't think so . In my last life I worked in the car industry and my instinct tells me that there won't actually be a massive difference in used values between the two.
Good luck with your final decision and please post the response on the cost to upgrade during ownership when Tesla get back to you.
I mentioned this is your other thread, but the 75 has 25% more max range than the 60 (when looked at from a starting point of a 60)
and there's the rub. Its turned out, for us, that we quite often make use (or take comfort from) the extra range (85 was discontinued during my order period and I upgraded to 90). The 90 has a range of 220 miles or so but since owning the car I have adopted a habit of charging to 100% whenever we make a journey of 160 miles or more - ensuring I can press-on if, say, we get held up, or can accommodate "could you just drop these teenagers at the station on your way home" and all that sort of stuff!
The mindset of an ICE driver (like me) to someone like yourself with first hand experience of "range" management is really interesting. As an ICE driver a "range" is given on the fuel gauge but realistically never really noted until either a long trip is forthcoming or it hits quarter of a tank(which is for me is around 170 miles) Soon a range of 170 miles will be my "full tank" with a quarter reading at 43 miles. Currently when I am down to my last "quarter" that is the signal to fill her up! It is certainly going to be a completely different strategy in a couple of months...............I guess charging at home /office even when not really needed is probably the key ( such as down to 60% with no plan to travel more than 20 miles that day) Adopting This strategy ensures any unexpected detour can be accommodated and if an unplanned trip at short notice comes up which requires plenty of range it avoids anxiety of either range or time taken to charge on the way to the destination ?
Sorry just throwing my thoughts out there now I am starting to get closer to my Feb/March delivery date......
I read loads, as I am sure you have done, before taking ownership and all the old hands said "Range anxiety is nothing to worry about" so I assumed it wouldn't be! It truned out to just be a bit of change-management, and like all the Eco things we have implemented there have also been some lifestyle changes that we had to make to accommodate the change. No emergency 1 gallon can of 4-Star in the Boot / Garage, and an unscheduled powercut during the home-charging-interval is a PITA. Flip-side: off-peak electicty in UK is 5x, or more, cheaper than Petrol, fantastic if you are a high-mileage driver.
First up: you leave home every morning with a full tank. Thus you have to be travelling, in that day, more than 170 miles [your range for a 60] before you even have to think about off-site refuelling.
The "Fill when it falls below 1/4 tank" in an ICE is trivially easy, because there is a filling station on every street corner ... so when travelling more than 170 miles in a day in an EV some planning is definitely required (well, the first time you drive that route, at least)
The key thing for me (which i'm sure I have mentioned) was changing from the ICE-style habit of "Fill her to the brim" which initially manifested itself as sitting at a supercharger getting loads-of-electrons!! which then became: setting the SatNav and the Energy Monitor so that the moment I had enough spare-buffer to continue my journey (I work on 10% - so perhaps 20 - 25 miles) I set off. I would say that my Supercharging, now, is 50:50 where I fill up for 30 - 45 minutes because I have a long way to go, and 5-10 minutes to give me just enough to get home.
At a Supercharger I always increase the charge limit to 100% - just in case I am delayed, getting a coffee/whatever, so that the car will continue charging. Unlike standing at the pump filling with Petrol / Diesel, and then queuing to pay, you can get on with something else whilst the car is charging - so although it takes longer, the time can be productive. That works well for the driver, but for your passengers Supercharging just lengthens the journey - they already did all their emails etc. whilst sitting in the passenger seat! They can of course get out and stretch their legs, and have a pee, and get a coffee - same for the driver too.
I always increase the scheduled overnight charge from my regular 90% setting to 100% if I am going to travel 75%, or more, of the car's max range. This is just "insurance", and something that I didn't bother to do initially (through fear that frequent 100% charging would damage the battery(*), there is now plenty of evidence that the battery will not be damaged / prematurely decline through 100% charging several times a month, just best not to leave it sat, fully charged, for prolonged periods). With a software-limited 60 there is nothing to stop you charging to 100% every time - you would only be charging to 80% of the physical 75's battery, so you won't need to adjust you behaviour for that at all.
(*) 10% of the battery in a 90 is about 23.5 miles for me. So if I charge to 100% I only have to drive 23.5 miles before it is back down at 90% again ... it just doesn't seem a big deal now, but I wasn't confident doing that initially.
Plug in in every night, even if you are only a few percentage points off "full". Only exception might be if you can plug in at work for free (i.e. you have no metered use for BiK - which I guess will only be the case if you are the owner-manager and turning a blind eye ...), you might as well get power at work, and if you are going back to work again tomorrow perhaps don't bother to charge at home tonight ... but ... do the sums ... how much would you spend if you charged at home every night (assuming you also charged at work every day)? - you'll probably find, with a decent Off-Peak rate, that its only a couple of hundred quid a year of which, if you miserly prioritise charging at work as best you can, you might save less than 50 quid a year - I've done the sums for me, and it is just not worth bothering about. Take all the power you can at work, assuming that is free, but just don't worry about te cost of charging at home. With a 60 you have somewhat limited range, and thus more risk of range-anxiety if you have a family emergency / something out of the ordinary springs up, so probably better to just plug in every time you are at home or at work so you always have your 170 miles range when you want to go somewhere.
I'm sure I've rabbeted on far too much!
Ha ha , no that`s really helpful... Like everything it is getting into a routine that works for you and for me I will have access to "free" power at work(company director) and plan to have a wall charger at home plus my golf club has also recently installed a couple of destination chargers which helps to pretty much cover every base locally should an "issue" arise at any one of these three charging outlets.
Cost of charging isn't something that I had factored into the overall ownership cost but it is interesting to hear that on off peak the maths work out so cheap in comparison to fueling an ICE , initially my main focus whilst deciding if to go down the Tesla route was lifestyle and how I would have to accomadate running an electric vehicle particularly as it will be the main family car ,however as my thought process got deeper into it the question was actually does a Tesla fit into my driving habits and lifestyle? Thankfully the answer was YES!!
And yes I have read copious amounts from the message boards, my wife has this impression that I have become infatuated with Tesla Motors club and she is showing signs of genuine concern.....!!
My wife wondered if everything was ok as she said I seemed a bit subdued and preoccupied of late.
Hardly surprising when you are waiting for your Tesla to move from the production queue into actual production. Obviously valuing my marriage I didn't fess up but said everything was fine. Reckon that's given me a weeks breathing space so it had better be in production soon
Oh DJP31 you really made me laugh, I am feeling exactly the same way as you. There is no point hoping for any understanding from the ladies. But safe in this man cave I think we can all admit the endless waiting is now taking its toll. I am genuinely feeling low and just want it to be over so I can enjoy the car. I have to say it constantly gripes me how in the USA someone can just order one and 3 or 4 weeks later they get it. I think they really are going to have to address this moving forward as it just not right. I suppose you could say the one reward for the uk has been we will all get the level 5 autonomy I would have been gutted if I had missed that but still come on tesla you have been building right hand drive cars since September so let's get on with it your customers are waiting too long.
I run the risk of losing your empathy.... I'm waiting for an S ordered at the end of Oct, so nothing like the wait many of you X boys are enduring. However instant gratification is too slow for me and this enforced patience had better be worth the wait! I do know of a couple of prospective owners who have arranged test drives during the Long Wait to help them keep the faith.
My understanding is the RHD cars are made in batches so I suspect there will be a big shipment of S and X's arriving Feb/March next year. Given the VED changes I think it is doing to be an even more chaotic end of Q than normal. Add to the mix that they are stretched here anyway I'm preparing myself for a handover that is not commensurate with the wait or spend.
Anyway, must go and check My Tesla in case it's been updated in the time it's taken to post this
Its got nothing to do with gender, im the tesla obsessed person in our house who gets the 'are you reading that forum again?' comments. Yes i also mope, and i do retreat to my girl cave too.
Anyhow in transit, so only a matter of weeks now after reserving last year. had the charger installed this past weekend and i confess i did play with it as i passed it in the garage just to see it light up.
Oh that sounds familiar. I can activate my charger from a web browser, so I do that sometimes as I arrive home