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Navigate on Autopilot is Useless (2018.42.3)

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The reason I said it should start slowing down a little before the exit is because in my experience, Nav on AP takes some exits a bit too fast. Long exits are fine.

Yes, this. NOA tried to slam me into a concrete barrier once on an exit with zero shoulder, and as soon as NOA decided there was a lane there, it got into it FAST, even though the lane was actually still appearing and was not yet full width. And like I said, zero shoulder and a concrete barrier on the other side. Not a good situation.

In terms of using the blinker, I just think giving other cars a bit more advanced noticed that you are taking the exit is prudent. It's what a safe human driver would do.

Not only is it the most safe and polite thing to do, it's also the law.
 
Can you be more clear and explicit in what state and law? I see 100 feet mostly in searches. Isn't that like ~1 second at 70 mph?

200ft in some states, 100ft in most according to the Internet, and 100ft is almost exactly 1 second at 70mph. So (a) it does not seem to even wait one full second; it just puts on the turn signal and immediately executes the lane change, and (b) on most exits you really shouldn't usually be going 70 when you take the exit, particularly with shorter exits as @diplomat33 was talking about, but NOA is quite happy to do this.
 
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200ft in some states, 100ft in most according to the Internet, and 100ft is almost exactly 1 second at 70mph. So (a) it does not seem to even wait one full second; it just puts on the turn signal and immediately executes the lane change, and (b) on most exits you really shouldn't usually be going 70 when you take the exit, particularly with shorter exits as @diplomat33 was talking about, but NOA is quite happy to do this.


It does not cross the line in less than one second.
 
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It does not cross the line in less than one second.

Sorry, but sometimes it does. It begins moving over at the same moment it turns on the blinker, and sometimes moves very abruptly; uncomfortably so. Other times it takes much longer. Sometimes it swerves back and forth between the highway and the exit because it can't figure out where the lanes are if they're not well-marked.

I know some people report better experiences, but that's what I get.
 
Slowing down before taking an exit should only happen when absolutely necessary.

Agree, I was always taught you only brake on the highway when it's necessary. I.e. make a best effort to stay in your lane and maintain the speed of traffic. If a car behind you is forced to brake for no good reason then you blew it. If you ever watch an aerial view of traffic, a single car braking can cause a chain reaction that creates a whole traffic jam, like an invisible wave traveling through miles of traffic. That's my fear when using Navigate on Autopilot since it's so prone to slowing down for no reason I have to cover the accelerator with my foot at all times.
 
Gave NavOnAP some more behind-the-wheel time since my initial post. After trying it for ~2000 miles now I've finally decided............ to just disable it completely in the car's settings.

The last straw was last night when it almost got me and my passengers into a serious accident, despite hands-on-the-wheel and full attentiveness.

NavOnAP suggested a lane change to the right for an exit that was about a mile ahead. As what seems like par for the course, its suggestion was to change lanes directly into another car that it was fully aware of, so waited a moment to pass that car, then confirmed it.

Car started edging to the right, got 3/4ths of the way into the right lane.

About that point, an impatient car behind me that wasn't happy enough with my +14 MPH vs the speed limit driving started to approach to pass us. The Tesla was still moving right slowly, and the tailing vehicle hadn't really been tailgating or anything. They just saw us moving and started to speed up. As the car got to the point where the left tire was on the center line, the car approaching from the rear was nearly in line with my rear bumper.

Then, out of no where, the car pops up "Lane change cancelled" and jerks the wheel hard to the left and gets back into the left lane. Was abrupt enough to wake my passengers. We also nearly collided with the rapidly approaching car behind us, to the point where they did a full panic brake to avoid me... quite narrowly it seems. A few more miliseconds of reaction time on their part and I'd likely be attaching an accident report to this post.

The most worrisome part is that it took my hand that was on the wheel with it as it jerked into the left lane, and didn't disengage based on my resistance until after the maneuver, which only took a split second. (Technical side: My educated guess as to why this was the case is that whatever algo in AP2 determines user applied steering wheel torque didn't correctly cancel out the commanded steering's effect on torque, and thus was unable to properly register user applied torque during the abrupt maneuver and didn't disengage quickly as commanded. Likely due to some kind of internal sample-based or time-based smoothing of the values.)

I'm not one to try and blame anything on AP. Ultimately, the driver is responsible for the car's actions. If there was an accident here, I'd hope the person to the rear with their somewhat unsafe passing maneuver would end up being the at fault party... but honestly, there was no reason for the car to jump back to the left lane. Not for AP, not for a human. It's something that wouldn't happen, and I can't blame the driver behind for assuming the lane change would be quickly be completed. I couldn't blame any reasonable driver for believing that a car with their turn signal on, who's 90% completed a lane change, would just decided to abort. The problem here is that I just didn't have many options for a reaction to the car's action. I couldn't brake, since this would get me rear-ended. No way to reach for the gear stalk to disengage AP that quickly. More importantly, AP didn't disengage like it should during the maneuver based on human applied wheel torque and instead took my hand along for the maneuver.

In this case... this is the fault of AP. My hands were on the wheel. AP should have disengaged instead of being able to turn sharply left at 79 MPH. (Beating a dead horse here probably, but this issue is completely unique to AP2. Based on first hand testing and experience, the same thing is impossible with AP1 as there is a safety decision to abort automated steering control based on torque on the wheel that is handled by the EPAS itself when human applied torque exceeds a threshold... doesn't appear to be the case with the newer EPAS setups since the Model 3, most AP2 S/X, and all AP2.5 S/X that have EPAS2 or 3.)

This is the first time I'm seriously considering reporting Tesla to someone like the NHTSA.

I've submitted a full accounting of this to Tesla as well along with date/time and such for log check purposes. Will see what they say before I do so.


Other notes:
Some people noted that the car suggesting lane changes directly into a vehicle it knows is there is intended behavior, since the human should be verifying before imitating the change. However, more testing suggests that this is just the result of poor coding, as the car will avoid suggesting lane changes into vehicles depending on which side camera is detecting the car. So this is definitely a bug and not a feature. Probably a huge part of the reason they pulled autonomous lane changes.

The car can NOT detect vehicles consistently to the sides and behind at night. Not at ALL. Especially motorcycles or cars with somewhat dim headlights. There is no way these cameras are going to work for night-time FSD without rear/side/corner radars... not on roads without overhead lighting (like most around me). This is a huge problem that I hadn't really considered the full ramifications of. An extreme example is that I was passing a truck with busted trailer lights (flickering off and on)... and the car completely lost it as soon as it was out of view of the front cam/radar.

Overall I continue to be disappointed with AP2.x. :(
 
That is my fear with any AP. It can not detect fast approaching vehicles. I always visually check my lane changes before I initiate anything either it ne manual or AP.

Only tried one NOA one time but I was whizzing pass some traffic in the right lane and the car suggests I change lanes to the left where there are literally parked cars on the interstate. I didnt initiate anything if course. I agree that the car cannot detect side cars or blindspots very well if cars around are not traveling close to your speed.
 
Gave NavOnAP some more behind-the-wheel time since my initial post. After trying it for ~2000 miles now I've finally decided............ to just disable it completely in the car's settings.

The last straw was last night when it almost got me and my passengers into a serious accident, despite hands-on-the-wheel and full attentiveness.

NavOnAP suggested a lane change to the right for an exit that was about a mile ahead. As what seems like par for the course, its suggestion was to change lanes directly into another car that it was fully aware of, so waited a moment to pass that car, then confirmed it.

Car started edging to the right, got 3/4ths of the way into the right lane.

About that point, an impatient car behind me that wasn't happy enough with my +14 MPH vs the speed limit driving started to approach to pass us. The Tesla was still moving right slowly, and the tailing vehicle hadn't really been tailgating or anything. They just saw us moving and started to speed up. As the car got to the point where the left tire was on the center line, the car approaching from the rear was nearly in line with my rear bumper.

Then, out of no where, the car pops up "Lane change cancelled" and jerks the wheel hard to the left and gets back into the left lane. Was abrupt enough to wake my passengers. We also nearly collided with the rapidly approaching car behind us, to the point where they did a full panic brake to avoid me... quite narrowly it seems. A few more miliseconds of reaction time on their part and I'd likely be attaching an accident report to this post.

The most worrisome part is that it took my hand that was on the wheel with it as it jerked into the left lane, and didn't disengage based on my resistance until after the maneuver, which only took a split second. (Technical side: My educated guess as to why this was the case is that whatever algo in AP2 determines user applied steering wheel torque didn't correctly cancel out the commanded steering's effect on torque, and thus was unable to properly register user applied torque during the abrupt maneuver and didn't disengage quickly as commanded. Likely due to some kind of internal sample-based or time-based smoothing of the values.)

I'm not one to try and blame anything on AP. Ultimately, the driver is responsible for the car's actions. If there was an accident here, I'd hope the person to the rear with their somewhat unsafe passing maneuver would end up being the at fault party... but honestly, there was no reason for the car to jump back to the left lane. Not for AP, not for a human. It's something that wouldn't happen, and I can't blame the driver behind for assuming the lane change would be quickly be completed. I couldn't blame any reasonable driver for believing that a car with their turn signal on, who's 90% completed a lane change, would just decided to abort. The problem here is that I just didn't have many options for a reaction to the car's action. I couldn't brake, since this would get me rear-ended. No way to reach for the gear stalk to disengage AP that quickly. More importantly, AP didn't disengage like it should during the maneuver based on human applied wheel torque and instead took my hand along for the maneuver.

In this case... this is the fault of AP. My hands were on the wheel. AP should have disengaged instead of being able to turn sharply left at 79 MPH. (Beating a dead horse here probably, but this issue is completely unique to AP2. Based on first hand testing and experience, the same thing is impossible with AP1 as there is a safety decision to abort automated steering control based on torque on the wheel that is handled by the EPAS itself when human applied torque exceeds a threshold... doesn't appear to be the case with the newer EPAS setups since the Model 3, most AP2 S/X, and all AP2.5 S/X that have EPAS2 or 3.)

This is the first time I'm seriously considering reporting Tesla to someone like the NHTSA.

I've submitted a full accounting of this to Tesla as well along with date/time and such for log check purposes. Will see what they say before I do so.


Other notes:
Some people noted that the car suggesting lane changes directly into a vehicle it knows is there is intended behavior, since the human should be verifying before imitating the change. However, more testing suggests that this is just the result of poor coding, as the car will avoid suggesting lane changes into vehicles depending on which side camera is detecting the car. So this is definitely a bug and not a feature. Probably a huge part of the reason they pulled autonomous lane changes.

The car can NOT detect vehicles consistently to the sides and behind at night. Not at ALL. Especially motorcycles or cars with somewhat dim headlights. There is no way these cameras are going to work for night-time FSD without rear/side/corner radars... not on roads without overhead lighting (like most around me). This is a huge problem that I hadn't really considered the full ramifications of. An extreme example is that I was passing a truck with busted trailer lights (flickering off and on)... and the car completely lost it as soon as it was out of view of the front cam/radar.

Overall I continue to be disappointed with AP2.x. :(

What firmware version? For me 42.x has been useless and I’ve disabled it but I just got 46.x and 48.x is rolling out. It will be interesting to see if things improve as new versions roll out.
 
(Beating a dead horse here probably, but this issue is completely unique to AP2. Based on first hand testing and experience, the same thing is impossible with AP1 as there is a safety decision to abort automated steering control based on torque on the wheel that is handled by the EPAS itself when human applied torque exceeds a threshold... doesn't appear to be the case with the newer EPAS setups since the Model 3, most AP2 S/X, and all AP2.5 S/X that have EPAS2 or 3.)

For whatever reason, I've found the disengagement torque to be quite variable in AP1, which ranges from accidental disengagement, to so much torque required I overcorrected from the line I wanted achieve - usually nudging the car away from an adjacent car.
 
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I'm not following your description. It sounds like an undertake during your lane change, but that doesn't totally match up with what you described. Any chance you have dashcam footage?

The Tesla built in dash cam feature stopped working for me like 2 days after I started using it (despite the USB drive testing out fine).

Also turns out my Blackvue started complaining to "Please check the SD card" earlier and hadn't had a chance to put in a new one (10 months of 24/7 recording). So, unfortunately no... or I'd already have posted it on my YouTube.

For whatever reason, I've found the disengagement torque to be quite variable in AP1, which ranges from accidental disengagement, to so much torque required I overcorrected from the line I wanted achieve - usually nudging the car away from an adjacent car.

I think you might be confusing the disengagement torque with actual control of the vehicle. Keep in mind, you have no control over steering until after the EPAS gives up control, in which case if you're applying torque to disengage in a direction, the car will immediately start to steer in that direction after the disengage event since it's sensing a torque command on the torsion bar in that direction. Prior to that, the torque on the torsion bar is ignored (except to detect the disengage threshold and hands-on detection) while the car is in control.
 
The Tesla built in dash cam feature stopped working for me like 2 days after I started using it (despite the USB drive testing out fine).

Also turns out my Blackvue started complaining to "Please check the SD card" earlier and hadn't had a chance to put in a new one (10 months of 24/7 recording). So, unfortunately no... or I'd already have posted it on my YouTube.
Perfect storm, eh?

So is the short summary that someone undertook you with a large speed difference, and AP aborted the lane change too aggressively?
 

This video has been posted here on TMC before, and I think it's relevant to discussion of NOA — or really any discussion of driver-assistance features. TL;DW: if automation ends up increasing the driver's workload in a given situation, then that's a situation where it's safer to turn it off and just drive manually.

With this in mind, I tend to agree with @wk057 that NOA isn't ready yet. It has much different task workload characteristics than TACC or AutoSteer alone, and in its current form its task workload is higher than manual driving. No doubt it takes some getting used to. But after trying to use it for about 600 freeway miles, I feel that NOA needs much more careful supervision than TACC or AutoSteer alone. That increases my workload as driver and reduces safety. I won't use it regularly until that changes.
 
What firmware version? For me 42.x has been useless and I’ve disabled it but I just got 46.x and 48.x is rolling out. It will be interesting to see if things improve as new versions roll out.

I have 46.2 and it's no better than 42.x was. It's so bad I can't help but wonder if the people who have posted that they love it and it works really well for them are just plain lying. If not, they're driving on extremely different roads than I am, or my car has a hardware problem of some sort. This is not a matter of opinion, it's not personal preference -- this feature is useless, aggravating, stressful and dangerous for me, in my car, on the roads I drive on (and I've tried it on a lot of roads, including very nice easy Interstates).
 
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I think you might be confusing the disengagement torque with actual control of the vehicle. Keep in mind, you have no control over steering until after the EPAS gives up control, in which case if you're applying torque to disengage in a direction, the car will immediately start to steer in that direction after the disengage event since it's sensing a torque command on the torsion bar in that direction. Prior to that, the torque on the torsion bar is ignored (except to detect the disengage threshold and hands-on detection) while the car is in control
Are you sure about that? I think the torque that « locks » the wheel is pretty robust but it does not FULLY disable the input while in AP. To see this, while driving relatively fast (more precisely, not slowly), spins the wheel left right left right etc. In fast succession and you’ll feel the car « dancing » and being unstable WHILE on AP. So it definitively disable it well but not fully imo.

Oh, and the very notion of having to over steer to take control is super dangerous imo. You have to over steer, get back control of your oversteer (especially at highway speed) and THEN fix the possible initial situation