TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

NEMA 14-50 is dead - all hail NEMA 6-50

Discussion in 'Model 3: Battery & Charging' started by eprosenx, May 4, 2019.

  1. eprosenx

    eprosenx Active Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2018
    Messages:
    2,037
    Location:
    Beaverton, OR
    So this may seem a bit controversial, but now that Tesla is no longer shipping the 14-50 adapters with the UMC / new vehicles, I would like to throw out there that 14-50 is perhaps no longer the logical receptacle to install for home installations.

    Here are the benefits of a 6-50 receptacle over a 14-50:
    • Does not require a neutral wire which is an added cost
    • Cable is smaller in diameter and more flexible, so easier to install
    • Receptacle is less expensive
    • Less wires required in the wall box makes for easier installation
    Here are the downsides of a 6-50 over a 14-50:
    • Future EVSEs might not come with a 6-50 receptacle option (though there are J1772 EVSE's that support 6-50 right now)
    • You can't use the receptacle for visiting RV's (most EV owners won't care about this)
    • Buying the 14-50 adapter from Tesla instead of the 6-50 would allow you to use that 14-50 adapter elsewhere when on the road (and 14-50 is more common these days than 6-50)
    Here is a back-of-the-napkin example of a basic installation cost comparison:

    Screen Shot 2019-05-04 at 8.33.30 AM.png

    Now this assumes basic 6 gauge copper NM cable and at 100 feet (which perhaps is a little longer than the average install?)

    The 14-50 comes out to be almost 62% more expensive!

    Now, if you are paying a professional to install this, the vast majority of the cost is probably their labor and the delta cost for them to do a 14-50 vs. a 6-50 is not much (6-50 is going to be less stiff so perhaps marginally easier to install).

    Am I missing anything here?

    What do you think?
     
    • Like x 10
    • Informative x 1
  2. Big Earl

    Big Earl bnkwupt

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2017
    Messages:
    4,199
    Location:
    Springfield, VA
    I don’t think the ubiquitous 14-50 is going anywhere, but you have a great point about the installation cost of a 6-50. Perhaps it will become more common for home Tesla charging. Clipper Creek makes some J1772 EVSEs with the 6-50 plug.
     
  3. Eno Deb

    Eno Deb Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2018
    Messages:
    2,523
    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    That one is pretty much negated since you can buy a separate 14-50 adapter from the savings and still have money left over. ;) I think you have a good point about the 6-50.
     
    • Like x 2
    • Funny x 1
  4. ewoodrick

    ewoodrick Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2018
    Messages:
    5,274
    Location:
    Buford, GA
    Not changing things at all. A 6-50 isn't a great option to install, I tend to question your numbers a little, but it's the flexibility of the 14-50 that's important. That's what other EVs use and what larger motorhomes use . It's easy to convert the 14-50 to anything else, because it has the ground and neutral wire . It's just a more flexible solution.
    You just paid over$40k, is $100 a big deal? Also, the plug, as mine has, will out last a car, maybe out last 5 cars. Much cheaper to get it right the first time.
     
    • Like x 7
    • Disagree x 4
  5. TheDom

    TheDom Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2018
    Messages:
    22
    Location:
    Fort Myers, FL
    If you're going to put in a plug, the 14-50 is way more versatile and found in every camp site around the US. In our case, the EVSE is like 8 feet from our power box, so cable cost difference is negligible. The ease of installation of 4 vs 3 wires is negligible: literally one extra screw to loosen/tighten on each end. Overall I think you're splitting hairs except for the situation where you've got a very long run and a tight budget.
     
    • Like x 8
  6. Eno Deb

    Eno Deb Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2018
    Messages:
    2,523
    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    That's one way to view it. The other is that the 6-50 is really a better match for EV charging, since no EVSE will ever have mixed 120/240V loads. So unless you plan to use the outlet for something else (e.g. feeding an RV in case the outlet is outside) you're probably wasting money on a 14-50.
     
    • Like x 2
  7. Watts_Up

    Watts_Up Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2019
    Messages:
    2,214
    Location:
    In a galaxy far, far away
    #7 Watts_Up, May 4, 2019
    Last edited: May 4, 2019
    Ok, the Tesla UMC doesn't use Neutral, however:

    - Unless it's a DIY "Do it yourself" project, saving $83 for 100 feet long by not installing a Neutral wire is meaning less.
    Typical Labor for this type of job by an electrician could be in the $2k - $5k range.

    - Corrected web link for the above quote: Copper Building Wire (Thank you for the useful link)

    - The NEMA 14-50 is the current norm: i.e. new oven-range, typically using the (now deprecated) 10-30, include a 14-50 instead.

    Few years from now you might get a new EV charger, or want to instal a 120 V plug when the charger is not used...

    Note: The 6-50 was designed typically to be used with a 6-gauge flexible power cord up to 200 ft,
    thus not having a Neutral was understandable for more practicability.
     
    • Like x 2
    • Disagree x 1
  8. timk225

    timk225 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2016
    Messages:
    1,915
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    OP, you're wrong about why the 14-50 adapter isn't given away for free anymore. Tesla realized they could further enhance corporate profits by selling it separately, just as they do with the 6-50.
     
    • Like x 3
  9. Rocky_H

    Rocky_H Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2015
    Messages:
    4,638
    Location:
    Boise, ID
    That is utter nonsense. Name another EV that comes with a 14-50 plug on its power cord.
     
  10. redgt

    redgt Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2018
    Messages:
    301
    Location:
    CA
    2018+ Nissan Leaf
     
    • Like x 2
    • Informative x 1
  11. redgt

    redgt Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2018
    Messages:
    301
    Location:
    CA
    audi etron as well
     
    • Informative x 1
  12. TomB985

    TomB985 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2019
    Messages:
    399
    Location:
    Isanti, MN
    This is kind of an interesting discussion, when did they stop shipping the 14-50 adapters with new cars? I took delivery on 4/16, and mine came with one.

    The outlet cost appears to be widely variable, but they certainly can be had for less than that. I believe I paid $7.86 at my local home improvement store for my 14-50 outlet. The three wire cable is more expensive for sure, but beyond that I don't see much of an advantage of the 6-50. The Mobile Connector certainly checks for that neutral circuit, though… When testing the wiring my neutral slipped off in the breaker box and the indicator on the Connector turned red and stopped charging. It may not use it, but it certainly wants it to be there for some reason.
     
  13. miimura

    miimura Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2013
    Messages:
    5,228
    Location:
    Los Altos, CA
    The vast majority of UL listed EVSE 30A and larger that come with a plug, come with a 6-50 plug.
     
    • Informative x 1
    • Like x 1
  14. eprosenx

    eprosenx Active Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2018
    Messages:
    2,037
    Location:
    Beaverton, OR
    They stopped in recent weeks. Depending on when your car was produced it may or may not have both in it (hit or miss while they still have inventory in the pipe).

    The really inexpensive receptacles you are quoting are likely Leviton from Home Depot. They are not recommended to be used (by Tesla). There is a thread around here somewhere where someone ordered one of each brand and compared them. The Leviton one was absolutely the most flimsy. We have seen a number of them melt on the forums here.

    So it seemed like the best bang for your buck (quality vs. price wise) was the Bryant ones. So here are the ones I used as my examples:

    Bryant 50A Single Receptacle 250VAC 6-50R BK 9650FR | Zoro.com
    Bryant 50A 4W Single Receptacle 125/250VAC 14-50R BK 9450FR | Zoro.com

    The mobile connector for sure does not check anything to do with the neutral pin. You can cut them off your UMC on the 14-50 adapter and it still works fine. I have an extension cord that literally has no neutral wire in it and it works. I suspect the scenario you describe is that somehow neutral and ground were not properly bonded together in your electrical system (scary!) or your ground connection was loose (not neutral). If using a 10-30 receptacle the UMC does use the neutral wire as a ground, so that could explain it too.
     
    • Informative x 2
  15. Rocky_H

    Rocky_H Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2015
    Messages:
    4,638
    Location:
    Boise, ID
    Oh that is right. I do now remember seeing that a few weeks ago.
    Has that actually started shipping yet?

    OK, so I'll split the difference. It was being referred to as if all other electric cars come with that, which I knew was at least mostly not true. I guess there are a small portion that do.
     
  16. yuhong

    yuhong Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2018
    Messages:
    275
    Location:
    Burnaby, BC
    For a good general purpose outlet useful for many vehicles (like RVs), NEMA 14-50 is still a good solution.
     
    • Like x 2
  17. Nekota

    Nekota Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2018
    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Siler City, NC
    Nissan LEAF SV plus has a 14-50 plug on it's mobile power cord.
     
  18. Rottenapplr

    Rottenapplr Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2019
    Messages:
    840
    Location:
    LOS ANGELES
    Weird decision. I would assume it’s to cut cost more so than to save us buyers money on the install. Bean counting as the experts say
     
    • Informative x 1
  19. rhaekar

    rhaekar Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2017
    Messages:
    452
    Location:
    San Diego
    My friend bought a 2018 Leaf and it only came with a 120V charging cable.
     
  20. redgt

    redgt Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2018
    Messages:
    301
    Location:
    CA
    it needs to be a higher end one to get a the dual cable
     

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC