New 85kWH battery for my 2013 P85+

[FURY]

Hi SSedan!

Copy that, especially if TESLA can supply say 100 or 110 or whatever near that as the replacement, capped at the nominal "S85" previous level. Then offer, say a year later for $X,XXXX or more to upgrade...

Thank you very much

FURY

 

[Chaserr]

I suppose the economics change should there be an actual fatal safety flaw with some early cells, modules, packs, etc - but I think we're a very long way down Speculation Road to arrive at that conclusion, despite the loud cries of the batterygate illuminati.

The one thing that saved this from being a past-tense fatal safety flaw already is the rapidly combusting pressure wave and flame outburst has created enough noise to awaken people sleeping when Teslas were burning in the garage. This isn't speculation, it's luck. Insulting other Tesla owners for knowing these facts will never change the facts themselves despite you digs. Tesla has a battery problem bad enough to still be committing crimes to cover up, one that only good fortune has kept from being a fatal problem. If it happens in my garage, people die - my garage is insulated well enough I didn't hear my race car damage the wall when it rolled off a lift overnight. If that had been the LA fire Tesla you'd be discussing the deaths of my family members right now.

Tesla isn't a criminal organization. They're breaking the law for a reason and it isn't to be lawbreakers alone. They admitted themselves the crimes are a response to potentially fatal fire problems we are all aware of. It has been long speculated that the reason Tesla can't afford to do a recall or comply with the law like they're supposed to was because all of our batteries have the same flaw. This new batterymay be the 85 they designed to not have that samne flaw, we can speculate about that, but we aren't speculating about the serious hazards of the batteries in our cars that Tesla is covering up - Tesla isn't they are open about batterygate and chargegate being direct responses to a bunch of fires.

This battery is almost definitely a way for them to once again begin complying with safety laws, eventually.

Tesla is always "inventing" new batteries and I'll maintain that I think the ultimate use of this pack is intended for a re-introduction of "standard range" S/X, not to service old cars.

Tesla only had 3 architectures that fit in the Model S, this is a new 4th. That is not an "always" thing it's exceptionally rare. The old 3 were (1) the 40/60/70/75 type 14 module design, (2) the 16 module 85/90 design, and (3) the 16 module 100 design. This new 85 is a 14 m odule version of the 16/100 design and it took them 4 years after the 16-module version it is absed on to invent. Give them credit where due, they created something new and it works perfectly for its intended use so far. Better than the original, and adds a cheaper higher range standard model S if they decide to sell it and not just use it for recalls (which is conjecture - right now we only know that 100% of them seen are used as replacements but I agree with your conjecture that someday maybe they will make a 300+ mile standard range S using it too..

 

[MP3Mike]

Probably at brick level.

Nope, the bricks are all glued/welded together inside each module. The module is really the smallest serviceable part inside the pack. (As it relates to cells.)

 

[JRP3]

I know to the academics this will sound wasteful, but often times REALITY is if you have the facilities to make something in volume, it is easier to make a new one than fix the old.

Agree.

I get the argument about the value of components but a messed up Tesla battery is still very valuable so it is not like new packs actually cost as much as a new pack for a new car, the old core has value.

I'd assume they would use the old pack structure with new modules. I don't know if they'd take the time and effort to sort through old modules from degraded low range packs to try and put them into some secondary use. Seems like too much work and too much potential for warranty and liability issues down the road.

 

[jflaplante]

Since I see you're in the UK - are you completely sure you have a real 75kwh battery and not one of the rare 85kwh BTX8 batteries that ended up in a handful of cars over there?

As a Canadian X75D owner I can confirm that I've hit 128kw on occasions and that my pack part number is the real 75kwh/350v pack.

It is also worth nothing that the new 85kwh pack is listed as "ASY-HV BATTERY,85KWH,SX" wich included S and X models. Since there no 85kwh Model X it could be that this pack would be used to replace/standardise all the 60/70/75/85 packs with various levels of software limitations to lower the available energy to match the original pack. It would be cool if they replaced all those packs that are eventually slowed down while supercharging too!

 

[CSFTN]

If the new pack is actually and truly an 85 - not an 81, or even better is an 86 or 87, do you think the could use it to replace the 90s which go bad too?

This is based upon my recollection that the 85s actually have 81 kWh of usable electricity, the 90s actually had 86 kWh, but the 100s actually have 102.
(and my more distant recollection that the 85s could contain 85 if the BMS allowed them to charge as Panasonic tested the individual cells in the factory but 81 as the Tesla BMS maxes out the pack)

 

[Chaserr]

@jfaplante this pack might be able to replace 90 packs too.

Since this new 85 supercharges at old speeds, I think the slowed charging tells us the batteries that are affected by the coming recalls. Always remember, Tesla isn't downgrading our cars just to make us upset at them. They're trying to avoid a bigger problem than a disenfranchised owner base. The replacement batteries seem to be fixed, and a lack of a fix is why they thought they had to hide the problem and not announce a recall. Now that they have one I think an announcement is coming, but probably not for months since Musk wants to get paid and his salary stipulations say he needs stock to stay high for months.

 

[jflaplante]

@jfaplante this pack might be able to replace 90 packs too.

Indeed.

 

[ucmndd]

Since this new 85 supercharges at old speeds

I think you need to be more careful about stating factual conclusions like this based on a single charging session where the OP clearly stated it was below freezing out and the battery was cold.

 

[Chaserr]

Are you not aware of the topic we're discussing? Instead of just disagreeing for the sake of your personal crusade against discussion of Tesla's downgrade controversies, look at the data. This new battery factually charges at old speeds, you should be able to figure that out yourself if you look. It's way faster than the new nerfed speeds those of us who know the topic are familiar with, even for a cold charge this is an envious charge session most of us would pay for immediately if the upgrade was offered. Summer will probably make it far faster than original. You don't need to be "careful" to see the obvious. This new battery looks like a beast. An improvement everywhere it matters.

 

[tga]

Since this new 85 supercharges at old speeds, I think the slowed charging tells us the batteries that are affected by the coming recalls.

As much as I'd like my charge speeds restored, I don't think you can go that far, since it appears that most (probably all) 85's are impacted by chargegate. I doubt they will replace every 85 pack out there, rather only those impacted by batterygate as well.

 

[dark cloud]

This battery is 88kwh actual. The old 85s were 81kwh actual. They used to round up but should have called the 85 an 80. This new 85 is larger than the old 90 in actual kwh!

I am surprised they still used the 85 number on the pack and not a "long range" label.

Do we know for sure there are 18650's inside?

 

[SSedan]

While I hope I get a new pack I would not be too optimistic about large numbers of these shipping.
My P85 is down to 242miles some of that being winter and after a 25mile drive only charged at 40kw a couple weeks ago, don't know pack temp but am worried just how bad charging might be as this would completely ruin the car for road trips. Even 60-70 might ruin it.

I suspect the memory is on it's way out. Says Nav maps not loaded but software says they are up to date and on a power off reboot it flashed can not drive disconnect cable when it was not plugged in.

 

[Chaserr]

@tga They didn't replace the "small number" because it's all of the batterygate batteries. Wk057 let that one slip, "every 85 and 75 battery" or something to that effect was what he said before he stopped implicating himself any farther. They're chargegate limiting so fewer batteries go from ill to terminally ill but all are on their way. They won't have a choice on recalls, there is a fire risk and any battery that ever had the potential flaw has to be replaced, eventually. It's just going to be a year. I'm trying to make someone at TEsla realize that a few of us will pay to help lower their burden and jump to the front of the replacement queue.

I am surprised they still used the 85 number on the pack and not a "long range" label.

Do we know for sure there are 18650's inside?

It's bigger than the 90 battery so I I think they labeled it "85" because its purpose is to be a recall solution for batterygate. Most of the batteries it is replacing are 85s. They used the new 100 thermal architecture so that makes me suspect all or most of the older batteries had the same thermal flaw.

We don't know what's inside but the 350v and capacity works out for a normal 100 kwh 18650 pack with 2 modules removed.

 

[bmah]

Are you not aware of the topic we're discussing? Instead of just disagreeing for the sake of your personal crusade against discussion of Tesla's downgrade controversies, look at the data. This new battery factually charges at old speeds, you should be able to figure that out yourself if you look. It's way faster than the new nerfed speeds those of us who know the topic are familiar with, even for a cold charge this is an envious charge session most of us would pay for immediately if the upgrade was offered. Summer will probably make it far faster than original. You don't need to be "careful" to see the obvious. This new battery looks like a beast. An improvement everywhere it matters.

I interpreted that comment as a desire to see data from more than one charging session before drawing conclusions. That one charging session looked great, but wouldn't you like to see a few more?

(Not taking sides in your disagreements, just an interested bystander who once had to rewrite portions of his dissertation due to issues around statistical confidence.)

Bruce.

 

[Chilam]

I interpreted that comment as a desire to see data from more than one charging session before drawing conclusions. That one charging session looked great, but wouldn't you like to see a few more?

(Not taking sides in your disagreements, just an interested bystander who once had to rewrite portions of his dissertation due to issues around statistical confidence.)

Bruce.

Will do more testing once weather warms up a bit. I'm also looking into getting a BT OBD2 module to dig a little deeper too

 

[Kristoffer Helle]

They will always slow down charging after a while. No battery in the world can handle the same charging speed it's entirely life.
Tesla won't recall all old 85 packs for replacement. Not a problem.
The only problem is that Tesla have given people impression that a battery won't have any drawback when it's getting old / hard use / lots of miles.

And when we ask to buy a new bigger pack, they won't let us...
It's the only product I own, where the seller won't let me buy a new battery.

 

[tga]

They will always slow down charging after a while. No battery in the world can handle the same charging speed it's entirely life.

Yes, but that's usually because the internal resistance of the cells has risen, lowering the current they can take at a given charge voltage. That's not what happened with "chargegate" - Tesla artificially reduced the charge rate below the pack's normal IR limits. It's an artificial reduction beyond what the cells should be able to handle.

 

[JRP3]

I remember in the early days of the iPod Apple told people the had to buy a whole new unit instead of replacing the battery. They quickly changed that policy after enough complaints.

 

[JRP3]

It's an artificial reduction beyond what the cells should be able to handle

One could argue that if the cells would quickly degrade at those rates they can't really handle it. The bms is always putting a limit on what the cells can actually do because they wouldn't last at all at maximum output and input.