New Highland UK - stalks

[trueblue_ips]

Sums it up very well, after a week or two (*may not be the same for all drivers) you don't even think about it any more.

I think I've said this before, not sure here, but prior to taking delivery if there'd been an option for ~$100 to have stalks I'd probably have taken it. Within a day or two, I'd only have taken it if there was no cost difference, but after a week or two there's no way I'd select stalks even if it was a free option.

You just end up with the indicator buttons always under one of your thumbs without thinking about it, and you can hit them every time no matter where the wheel is positioned. Reaching for the stalk in my ICE vehicle just feels extremely clunky and silly now (It'll be replaced by a Model Y once Juniper is out)

The gear select is always selected for you (recognises that you have a parking space line behind you even when there is no car behind and is logical enough to know you want to go forward) 3 point turns are zero issue- though I will concede here that's no better than the stalk in an older Model 3, it is a substantial improvement over any shifter in an ICE vehicle though.

Sure, sure. The buttons constantly move with the wheel and change position. Stalks never move and are always in the same place. Imagine having set up where with the wheel inverted, the turn signals are inverted so the left signal suddenly turns you right and vice verse. Recipe for catastrophe. Better not to signal at all than signal the wrong.
And what if your hands are at the ten to two position rather than quarter to three?

 

[djtaylor]

I don't know what you have been driving but every manual car i have had the gear lever and clutch pedal in a fixed position. If reverse and 1st and the clutch and brake swappped positions every time i turned the steering wheel i think i would have struggled.

When I learned to operate vehicle controls, there was no steering wheel! I was 14 and it was a railway "permanent way" maintenance trolley.
Sat on the left, normal pedal layout, gear lever at the right hand, 4 speed H layout.
However...
Go the other direction down the railway line, the driver seat (more stool than seat) would slide forwards, a transmission reverser lever activated and now the driver faced the other way.
Result was that although there was a duplicate set of pedals, the gear lever was then at the left hand and the H upside down with 1st being lower right, 2nd push away, 3rd lower left and 4th at furthest left.
Nobody ever struggled with this either.
That said, being on rails, no steering wheel to bother with and things didn't exactly happen at random so mentally, the workload didn't exist in rapidly dynamic situations.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

This thread was actually started by a highland owner who can’t get on with them and still couldn’t weeks later. In subsequent posts some have tried to say it’s a generation/age thing, it’s technofobia, it’s some just don’t like change etc, none of it constructive.

There aren’t actually that many owners of a highland on this thread that I can think of, and whilst some have better button pushing accuracy that Luke Littler throwing darts at a revolving dart board, what I hear is “most of the time it’s fine”.

I’m not sure why people post anymore, nobodies really changing there view and there’s a camp on one side that says they’re fine, and a camp on the other side that’s says they’re a dumb idea. Reposting the same point time and time again isn’t changing anything, and descending into getting personal is just going to make me and the other mods needlessly busy

 

[khyros]

This thread was actually started by a highland owner who can’t get on with them and still couldn’t weeks later. In subsequent posts some have tried to say it’s a generation/age thing, it’s technofobia, it’s some just don’t like change etc, none of it constructive.

There aren’t actually that many owners of a highland on this thread that I can think of, and whilst some have better button pushing accuracy that Luke Littler throwing darts at a revolving dart board, what I hear is “most of the time it’s fine”.

I’m not sure why people post anymore, nobodies really changing there view and there’s a camp on one side that says they’re fine, and a camp on the other side that’s says they’re a dumb idea. Reposting the same point time and time again isn’t changing anything, and descending into getting personal is just going to make me and the other mods needlessly busy

I suppose you are right but people do change their mind. I was very sceptical about the indicator buttons until I tried them on my 22 M3LR with sexy buttons and thought it was perfectly fine. Haven't figured out about the gear change in highland yet though. If it bothers me too much when it comes to it I'd use the sexy knob to change gears when doing 3-point turns

 

[Rocket_man]

I like my Model 3, but don't love it. There are things that I really like, and things I really don't like. I was thinking my next car would be the refreshed Model Y. In the US, in a few years every EV manufacture will have cars compatible with the SC network. I hardly ever use SC's but it a great to have that option open to me if I went non-Tesla. So for me, this opens up all EV options. I'll have to see what the Model Y refresh looks like and what the competition is and make a choice. I prefer stalks. I haven't driven the Highland, but already I'm too distracted by the touchscreen and I don't need an additional distraction having to think where the turn signal is. No many roundabouts in the US but there are a few where I live.

I fear what is next on Tesla's 'what to remove' list...

The perfect future generation Tesla? No doors, no suspension, no windshield, no seat belts, no brakes, no battery, no motor, no radio, no touch screen, and of course no stalks. I bet they can build this for under $25K! Any takers?

 

[Emm23]

Interesting conversation. I haven't tried a stalkless car, and to be perfectly honest I simply don't want to either.

I'm middle aged, and I like technology having worked in the tech sector for years, but the indicator buttons on the wheel just don't fit with how I drive. I'm a 10-to-2 wheel person, and drive push-pull in the same manner everybody who was taught to drive in the UK should have been exposed to. I've seen youtube videos where the drivers are doing 9-and-3 and holding those positions all the way beyond 90 degrees on roundabouts, maybe this works with the buttons, but it's not how most people in the UK learned and I personally don't think it's very safe.

And as for the drive selector on the screen. No, just no! The screen on the Tesla is already a challenging point (glovebox control on a screen? for goodness sake!), it's something we had to decide to live with in order to get an EV with long range performance and a useable charging network, but not something we'd have chosen if there were options.

I like my Model Y, but if Tesla are continuing with stalkless then it's another brand for me next time. Thankfully Tesla opening the supercharger network means this won't be an issue in a couple of years when the lease is up.

 

[Zilla91]

I was out for a walk the other evening and there was a highland that was about the set off.

I noticed the brake lights coming on and off several times, almost as if the driver kept on swiping the screen and thinking they’ve put the car into drive only to realise that they hadn’t at all. Couldn’t be dealing with that all the time.

 

[Jules22]

I was out for a walk the other evening and there was a highland that was about the set off.

I noticed the brake lights coming on and off several times, almost as if the driver kept on swiping the screen and thinking they’ve put the car into drive only to realise that they hadn’t at all. Couldn’t be dealing with that all the time.

Unlikely, the car chooses the direction for you when you first get in and gets it right 99% of the time. It also only needs a cm or so swipe action to make it engage whichever direction you want it to go.

The only time I ever have to use the shift selection on any drive is when I get back home because I reverse into the garage.

If the reverse lights had been coming on and off several times you could be forgiven for assuming he was having problems with the selector, but the brake lights coming on and off could have been anything.

 

[trueblue_ips]

Unlikely, the car chooses the direction for you when you first get in and gets it right 99% of the time. It also only needs a cm or so swipe action to make it engage whichever direction you want it to go.

The only time I ever have to use the shift selection on any drive is when I get back home because I reverse into the garage.

If the reverse lights had been coming on and off several times you could be forgiven for assuming he was having problems with the selector, but the brake lights coming on and off could have been anything.

Blimey, so once every 100 days it guesses wrong and you risk an accident, maybe even injuring or killing an an innocent person. No thanks

 

[Jules22]

Blimey, so once every 100 days it guesses wrong and you risk an accident, maybe even injuring or killing an an innocent person. No thanks

LMAO nice try but not even close. It just picks a direction that is still valid and safe but not optimal.

Like any system you check before you accelerate and it's very clear what it has chosen.

 

[Emm23]

But that's exactly the problem people seem to misunderstand. I don't generally care about brand loyalty and simply bought the machine that best matched my needs. I found this thread interesting as the concept of people adapting to a new system has been mentioned quite frequently and while that may be true for an owners forum, I don't think it's representative of a majority of buyers.

I don't own stock, I don't care about the future of Tesla, I don't care about Elon's politics any more than I care about the politics of Ferdinand Porsche. It's just a machine to get from A to B in.

For a regular person who simply wants an EV, what reason is there for them to attempt to adapt to, or learn to live with a new Tesla layout? Jeez it's bad enough having to explain how the door handles work for everybody - I'd have taken the percentage efficiency hit for proper door handles that I can find in the dark!

Why wouldn't regular motorists just buy a car that works the same way as every other car on the road? Why mess with buttons when every other car has a conventional stalks? Why take the chance you may not get on with it when there are loads of other vehicles that will soon have access to the same charging network and have normal controls and features? Surely that's a lower risk option?

I know without driving it I won't like the buttons and swipe to reverse. I don't need to try it, and there's no reason for me to try it because my decision has already been made. My Model Y will not be replaced with a new stalkless version. Why would I bother with that? I can simply go to another manufacturer that builds cars with conventional controls. It's not 2014 any more, and there is loads of choice in the EV marketplace.

 

[Jules22]

Why wouldn't regular motorists just buy a car that works the same way as every other car

There are absolutely a large portion of the market like that and that's fine. Tesla isn't for them.

If Tesla made cars the same way as every other car we'd have zero innovation. They've taken the approach of question everything and look for better ways to replace technologies that have no more runway to improve.

This does lead to some frustrations as new technologies come up to speed but in almost every case it's led to a better outcome that other manufacturers will (or have) copied.

Some examples, like replacing rain sensors with vision, haven't proven themselves yet.

I think most Tesla owners come into the product knowing that it is going to be cutting edge and will involve changes.

Those who just want "another car that works the same as every other car" are not really Tesla's market. They'll just buy a legacy vehicle that will gradually look more and more like what Tesla was 5 or 10 years ago as these improvements start to take hold elsewhere.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

I got the feeling a few manufacturers ran to be like Tesla initially with the big screen (most had screens before Tesla, just not as dominant) but later designs are bringing back buttons for basic every day controls like heating and we’re getting more of a mixture. Others are sticking with a rotary controller to aid navigating the screen on the move. Tesla don’t which has made a 3rd party market for the sexy controller.

Aston Martin had completely flush door handles before Tesla, Tesla didn’t invent that.

Ferrari had stalkless indicators before Tesla, so didn’t invent that either, and virtually nobody thought it worth copying

Wipers will probably never work well. A simple physics assessment tells you that a camera with a focal length and aperture that’s ideal for seeing the road isnt going to be good at picking up stuff on the windscreen, do the test yourself, stand close to a window and look outside to the distance and anything on the glass all but disappears. We’re nearly 8 years on from when they took away the rain sensor, there comes a time when you should accept defeat and not be stubborn.

Tesla are avoiding head up displays and augmented reality. They’re great tech

We’re getting excited about adaptive headlights which have been around for years on other cars

So those that talk about the Tesla technofest and innovation everyone will follow, what exactly are we referring to other than games and fart noises? Tesla are challenging lots of things, sure, but it feels they just want to be different for the sake of being different, or if it’s cheaper to build, not because it’s better. Take cheaper construction with mega castings, does it made the car better? The BMW innovation in this area was carbon core technology, material science, composites.. which of those two sounds more high tech? That probably just leaves autopilot and we’ve hardly been blessed with progress in Europe

Theres a lot I like about Tesla, supercharging network making the idea of EVs viable, but I’m increasingly thinking what I like is actually common to many EVs, some power train etc, and charging isn’t a concern like it once was.

 

[Jason71]

I got the feeling a few manufacturers ran to be like Tesla initially with the big screen (most had screens before Tesla, just not as dominant) but later designs are bringing back buttons for basic every day controls like heating and we’re getting more of a mixture. Others are sticking with a rotary controller to aid navigating the screen on the move. Tesla don’t which has made a 3rd party market for the sexy controller.

Aston Martin had completely flush door handles before Tesla, Tesla didn’t invent that.

Ferrari had stalkless indicators before Tesla, so didn’t invent that either, and virtually nobody thought it worth copying

Wipers will probably never work well. A simple physics assessment tells you that a camera with a focal length and aperture that’s ideal for seeing the road isnt going to be good at picking up stuff on the windscreen, do the test yourself, stand close to a window and look outside to the distance and anything on the glass all but disappears. We’re nearly 8 years on from when they took away the rain sensor, there comes a time when you should accept defeat and not be stubborn.

Tesla are avoiding head up displays and augmented reality. They’re great tech

We’re getting excited about adaptive headlights which have been around for years on other cars

So those that talk about the Tesla technofest and innovation everyone will follow, what exactly are we referring to other than games and fart noises? Tesla are challenging lots of things, sure, but it feels they just want to be different for the sake of being different, or if it’s cheaper to build, not because it’s better. Take cheaper construction with mega castings, does it made the car better? The BMW innovation in this area was carbon core technology, material science, composites.. which of those two sounds more high tech? That probably just leaves autopilot and we’ve hardly been blessed with progress in Europe

Theres a lot I like about Tesla, supercharging network making the idea of EVs viable, but I’m increasingly thinking what I like is actually common to many EVs, some power train etc, and charging isn’t a concern like it once was.

Personally I have never been a fan of the innovation to only allow one phone to connect at once so you cannot play music through one phone while having another one connected for calls. Or the innovation to not have separate default volumes for different input channels that prevent you being deafened when changing source.
I guess I am just set in my ways and should stick to my 2014 Peugeot 108 that is mired in the past with those old features.
I also noticed that there was a recent innovation to change the name on the "connect" phone button to "pair a phone" even though that was the button that was pressed to connect an already paired phone. It seems that has now been re-innovated in the last software update back to "connect phone"again I really struggle to keep up with all this innovation sometimes.
\s

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

I guess I am just set in my ways and should stick to my 2014 Peugeot 108t. horse that is mired in the past with those old features.

fixed that for you

 

[Type2]

There are absolutely a large portion of the market like that and that's fine. Tesla isn't for them.

If Tesla made cars the same way as every other car we'd have zero innovation. They've taken the approach of question everything and look for better ways to replace technologies that have no more runway to improve.

This does lead to some frustrations as new technologies come up to speed but in almost every case it's led to a better outcome that other manufacturers will (or have) copied.

Some examples, like replacing rain sensors with vision, haven't proven themselves yet.

I think most Tesla owners come into the product knowing that it is going to be cutting edge and will involve changes.

Those who just want "another car that works the same as every other car" are not really Tesla's market. They'll just buy a legacy vehicle that will gradually look more and more like what Tesla was 5 or 10 years ago as these improvements start to take hold elsewhere.

Words like “innovation” and “cutting edge” not only suggest the use of the latest technology, but also technology that works and improves the driver experience. We know that some of Tesla’s innovations are complete fails. The wipers on my M3 are by far the worst I’ve had in any car for the past 25 years. Matrix lights are hardly an innovation - I’ve had them for 10 years and Tesla is only beginning to catch up with what is now largely a mainstream product. FSD in this country is currently going nowhere.

Button indicators are not a Tesla invention or innovation. I fail to see how they improve the driver experience. Lots of others who, like me, have test driven a Highland have said they “might be able to get used to them” but I’ve barely heard of anyone who says they materially improve the driver experience. There is a reason why stalks have stood the test of time - they are simple, intuitive, very easy to get used to and just work.

Besides, almost everything I’ve read suggests that Tesla’s reason for introducing buttons is not to improve the driving experience (though they might try to spin it that way) but is more of a cost cutting exercise. Innovation does not always mean improvement. Personally I’m very doubtful that in 10 years time you’ll see lots of mainstream manufacturers using indicator buttons.

 

[Zilla91]

We’re getting excited about adaptive headlights which have been around for years on other cars

You could get matrix headlights on a Vauxhall Corsa just under 10 years ago. Let that sink in…

 

[Emm23]

I do always have a small chuckle when I read or hear about a Tesla Model Y being described as cutting edge or revolutionary!

The drive units, battery and charging network maybe are, and Tesla have made some real innovations in production tooling and assembly. The screen is more of an annoyance, I'd prefer proper driver display and hardware controls but I've made peace with. It works and the UI is bearable, even if Spotify is a pile of junk.

However, the rest of the car is decidedly low tech and/or simply unfinished...

• Matrix headlights -10 years behind other brands.
• Auto-wipers - who actually knows any more?! They simply don't work.
• Full Self Driving - "coming later this year" in 2019. No sign of it coming to the UK any time soon. Probably won't work properly anyway.
• Traffic Aware Cruise Control - Navigation map data errors? No problem, it will brake hard for a junction that hasn't existed for 5 years, regardless of how close the following vehicle is. But at least we can laugh at those silly legacy manufacturers and their obsolete fully functional and non-beta radar units because we've got...
• Cameras - "the front, left, right, rear camera is blocked or blinded", every single minute of every single winter day. The very definition of nuisance alerts. And don't even think about actually look at the error message, or bing! "pay attention to the road".
• Cameras 2 - parking sensors are so easy and simple, but so very "legacy", instead lets complicate the whole thing by using some camera image processing to generate a useless and gimmicky 3d recreation of the surrounding environment rather than just good old reliable beeps, distance symbology, and a 360 view.
• Cameras 3 - reversing into a space? Good luck, because the steering guidance lines on the reverse camera are nowhere near where the wheels are actually going to go. Watch that white line slide across the pavement with joy (and a sense of impending doom), knowing other manufacturers of "legacy" cars can accurately show you where the wheels will go every single time. Still, good work for wheel refurb shops, I guess.
• Door handles - dark paint job? Good luck finding the handles on a dark, wet and windy night the UK is well known for. But at least we're not like those horrible legacy brands that fit nice little lights into the door handles on their ancient vehicles. You could buy a glow in the dark sticker from Amazon, I guess - make sure to order them at the same time as those filler bins for the sides of load area that Tesla were simply too modern to provide.
• Door handles 2 - watch with joy as your "legacy" car owning friends faff around trying to get in and then out of the car. I'm sure once they are in the fart noises will make all the difference.
• Door handles 3 - giving occasional rear seat passengers the safety brief about how to manually escape in the event somebody drives into us. Extra hardware is bad - so lets have two different electronic and physical methods to open the doors where legacy makes only have a single item, mostly because of...
• Frameless doors - did it rain overnight? Then you'll have a wet bottom as the drips from the window seal end up on your drivers seat.
• Broken LTE - months of driving with no sat nav map and broken LTE connectivity. Yay for progress. Those legacy makes with installed databases, must be like a rotary dial phone. Much better to live in the future and use Waze on your smart phone anyway, because carplay is so legacy it hurts. You can't see the smartphone in the charging location though, so get ready for another amazon order.
• Charge port - it's simply too difficult to unlock the charge cable for a few seconds when the doors are unlocked, we'll leave that for legacy manufacturers. Instead, get your smartphone out to do it even when it's cold, wet and wintery like California mostly isn't. You should have bought our special supply equipment and plug with fancy extra hardware button (you see, we like hardware controls when it allows for upselling!). You'll need the phone anyway, because...
• Charge port 2 - ...it was far to "legacy" to have a light there so you can see where to plug in. Maybe NACS is easier as they have a hole to slide into, but CCS plugs, yeah you'll need the flashlight. Or just slide it all around looking for the correct location, I'm sure that's not going to cause any issues down the line.
• Parcel shelf / load cover - no way to store it in the car. Taking the dogs to kennels on the way to vacation? You're going back home to pick up the load cover again.
• Parcel shelf / load cover 2 - folds up in some silly arrangement rather than just having a retractable cover.
• Integrated cargo net - there isn't one!
• Rear seat heaters - "Excuse me driver, would you kindly turn my seat heater on / up / down / off." Because hardware buttons are evil, apparently. Unless they are on the special charge handle, or under the little flap in the rear door pockets.

And yes, some of those things are being fixed on the new Model 3. But why on earth was a 2020s car built like that? How much extra did I pay for wheels or paint? Add a few hundred more dollars onto the list price, install some reliable single function sensors, get a new product designer that actually understands family use cases and fix all that stuff above. Most are not even remotely difficult.

And yet I do still enjoy the car, but let's not kid ourselves about how cutting edge it is!

 

[Leejmoff]

I do always have a small chuckle when I read or hear about a Tesla Model Y being described as cutting edge or revolutionary!

The drive units, battery and charging network maybe are, and Tesla have made some real innovations in production tooling and assembly. The screen is more of an annoyance, I'd prefer proper driver display and hardware controls but I've made peace with. It works and the UI is bearable, even if Spotify is a pile of junk.

However, the rest of the car is decidedly low tech and/or simply unfinished...

• Matrix headlights -10 years behind other brands.
• Auto-wipers - who actually knows any more?! They simply don't work.
• Full Self Driving - "coming later this year" in 2019. No sign of it coming to the UK any time soon. Probably won't work properly anyway.
• Traffic Aware Cruise Control - Navigation map data errors? No problem, it will brake hard for a junction that hasn't existed for 5 years, regardless of how close the following vehicle is. But at least we can laugh at those silly legacy manufacturers and their obsolete fully functional and non-beta radar units because we've got...
• Cameras - "the front, left, right, rear camera is blocked or blinded", every single minute of every single winter day. The very definition of nuisance alerts. And don't even think about actually look at the error message, or bing! "pay attention to the road".
• Cameras 2 - parking sensors are so easy and simple, but so very "legacy", instead lets complicate the whole thing by using some camera image processing to generate a useless and gimmicky 3d recreation of the surrounding environment rather than just good old reliable beeps, distance symbology, and a 360 view.
• Cameras 3 - reversing into a space? Good luck, because the steering guidance lines on the reverse camera are nowhere near where the wheels are actually going to go. Watch that white line slide across the pavement with joy (and a sense of impending doom), knowing other manufacturers of "legacy" cars can accurately show you where the wheels will go every single time. Still, good work for wheel refurb shops, I guess.
• Door handles - dark paint job? Good luck finding the handles on a dark, wet and windy night the UK is well known for. But at least we're not like those horrible legacy brands that fit nice little lights into the door handles on their ancient vehicles. You could buy a glow in the dark sticker from Amazon, I guess - make sure to order them at the same time as those filler bins for the sides of load area that Tesla were simply too modern to provide.
• Door handles 2 - watch with joy as your "legacy" car owning friends faff around trying to get in and then out of the car. I'm sure once they are in the fart noises will make all the difference.
• Door handles 3 - giving occasional rear seat passengers the safety brief about how to manually escape in the event somebody drives into us. Extra hardware is bad - so lets have two different electronic and physical methods to open the doors where legacy makes only have a single item, mostly because of...
• Frameless doors - did it rain overnight? Then you'll have a wet bottom as the drips from the window seal end up on your drivers seat.
• Broken LTE - months of driving with no sat nav map and broken LTE connectivity. Yay for progress. Those legacy makes with installed databases, must be like a rotary dial phone. Much better to live in the future and use Waze on your smart phone anyway, because carplay is so legacy it hurts. You can't see the smartphone in the charging location though, so get ready for another amazon order.
• Charge port - it's simply too difficult to unlock the charge cable for a few seconds when the doors are unlocked, we'll leave that for legacy manufacturers. Instead, get your smartphone out to do it even when it's cold, wet and wintery like California mostly isn't. You should have bought our special supply equipment and plug with fancy extra hardware button (you see, we like hardware controls when it allows for upselling!). You'll need the phone anyway, because...
• Charge port 2 - ...it was far to "legacy" to have a light there so you can see where to plug in. Maybe NACS is easier as they have a hole to slide into, but CCS plugs, yeah you'll need the flashlight. Or just slide it all around looking for the correct location, I'm sure that's not going to cause any issues down the line.
• Parcel shelf / load cover - no way to store it in the car. Taking the dogs to kennels on the way to vacation? You're going back home to pick up the load cover again.
• Parcel shelf / load cover 2 - folds up in some silly arrangement rather than just having a retractable cover.
• Integrated cargo net - there isn't one!
• Rear seat heaters - "Excuse me driver, would you kindly turn my seat heater on / up / down / off." Because hardware buttons are evil, apparently. Unless they are on the special charge handle, or under the little flap in the rear door pockets.

And yes, some of those things are being fixed on the new Model 3. But why on earth was a 2020s car built like that? How much extra did I pay for wheels or paint? Add a few hundred more dollars onto the list price, install some reliable single function sensors, get a new product designer that actually understands family use cases and fix all that stuff above. Most are not even remotely difficult.

And yet I do still enjoy the car, but let's not kid ourselves about how cutting edge it is!

Absolutely agree with you on this. Technology is also meant to make life easier/better, rather than causing more stress. Most of your points cause more stress than other previous cars I've had. Yes I love the drive/electric/acceleration and cost of owning, but Tesla really need to step it up in order for me to get another one. I was looking at the Y but after my very low ball trader in value, I now know its not worth it. I'll go with something else, I'm just waiting for more SC to open up.

 

[Js1977]

Technology is also meant to make life easier/better, rather than causing more stress

True and somer people still do use wood burners etc for heating. Far more reliable and actually can relieve stress.

Computers/ mobiles phones haven't done much to lower stress levels either in so many ways with social media being more of an antisocial thing... viruses, other malfunctions etc.

All self inflicted for the most part and the grass isn't always greener on the other side....

Luddites and Amish of old would be having a good old laugh if they could read some of this stuff