Newer P90DL makes 662 hp at the battery!!!

[P85DEE]

How is a single quarter mile pass an extreme condition. The loads aren't any different than I can generate accelerating on an on ramp.

I have heard you talk about risk,

It's very unlikely the car will break from a couple of runs at a drag strip. And even more unlikely they wouldn't fix it. You can't stay coward inside afraid of all the things that might happen, no matter how unlikely.

...But with all the other examples I've seen and everyday level of stress on the vehicle, it just isn't very likely. And I just don't think tesla would weasle out.

From that last statement, it appears that you have a lot more faith in Tesla than some of these other naysayers.

A former Army green beret once told me of the methods that the military uses to asses risk. He called it operational risk management. Your second quote above made me think of it.

A key part of it was accepting no "unnecessary" risk.

Operational risk management - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Since he told me that, yes, it impacted my decision as to track my Tesla or not.

I consider tracking my $124,000.00 Tesla an unnecessary risk. YMMV. I don't feel that the "risk" of eating a $124,000.00 car is worth any foreseeable "benefit" to me, nor do I see the risk of having to potentially have to make an out of pocket 5 figure repair to it to outweighing any potential benefit.

Thus I enjoy Ludicrous for the additional street performance, read passing capabilities on the street more so than for any other reason.

The risk of an incident is small but it's not non existent.

The fact that the risk of an incident is small is what justifies tracking the car in the first place for many people and was what justified it for me in previous vehicles.

But it goes beyond that.

It's sort of like having home owners insurance. You don't need it unless you have a fire or some other mishap or someone slips and falls on your property. And the chances of you having a fire or any of those other things are slim.

It goes to "what happens if you were to have an incident?"

And when that question is asked and that scenario evaluated, then things change a good bit.

Well, if you have an incident on the track, what's the most that it might cost to fix (or even replace) and then who pays?

Are they obligated to pay?

What happens if they refuse to pay and may have justification for refusing to pay?

Are you prepared to pay if it comes to that?

These are the risk you're taking on a drag strip whether you make one pass or a hundred passes.

You can argue with me until you're blue in the face, again I'm not the one you will be arguing with.

I'm not the one with the team of lawyers ready to assist me in screwing you in a warranty claim that I decide that I don't want to settle.

If you face a warranty denial due to an on track incident, then you won't have to make your case with me, you'll have to make it against people with considerably more ways, resources and motivation to put you at a disadvantage than I could ever have.

 

[P85DEE]

Ugh, Ring and pinion. I have a hatred for those. Let me tell you another story. Again, 2013 Mustang GT. I had a defect from the factory where the crush sleeve preload hadn't been set. It's supposed to be between 15-25in/lb on a Ford 8.8. Mine was 0 in/lb. Totally incorrect. After 500 miles of driving I had pretty awful gear whine. I really, really, REALLY hate gear whine. So, in to the shop it goes. They fix everything, tidy it up and give it back to me. With the same gears. Obviously, it's still gonna have whine since the original, incorrect pattern, is now worn into the gears. Back to the shop. More repairs, same gears. Still whine.

Eventually I talk to the shop advisor, who tells me that they can't replace the gears because they technically aren't broken. They perform their function and noise isn't a concern that Ford is willing to address. This goes on for a few months. Eventually I end up in front of a Lemon Law lawyer who calmly explains to me that since I had taken my car to the drag strip I was pretty much SOL if I end up in court. Also, even if I did win, the cost to me would still be more than the total cost to just have a professional mechanic set me up with new gears ($1500, Welcome to Northern Virginia )

As I said, you gotta pay to play.

Definitely a lesson to be learned in that above example.

I'm with you every step of the way on it.

Only reason why GM was helpful during one of my on track incidents was because at the time it happened, I was the owner of 4 GM vehicles, and had purchased several prior to then and brought this up when they told me up front that because the incident had happened on the track, (I actually had the car towed from the track to the dealership as the track was about to close for the weekend and my car would have been locked inside the gate over the weekend) that the repair would not be covered, which I fully expected them to say.

But I didn't play hardball with them as I knew that they were holding all of the cards.

The dealership wasn't about to do the repair because it being a major repair would have to be authorized by GM through one of their regional representatives, or else the dealership would not be paid for the repair.

The waiting and negotiation started, but it did not start out well for me.

I explained to GM that I realized that the matter was not covered under the circumstances, mentioned that I was a long term customer and was currently in possession of 4 of their vehicles, each bought brand new, and asked if there was any way that they would work with me.

They were under no obligation to do anything for me under the terms of the warranty.

 

[NSX1992]

I go to the track for three reasons.
1. I enjoy the competition.
2. I enjoy showing the ICE motorheads what an electric car (Tesla) can do. Many are still not familiar with Tesla and appreciate seeing one in person. When I run 11.2+ I tell people that the new P100DL does 10.8 (waiting for the 10.7-).
3. The Auto Club and public safety agencies encourage racing at the strip not on the street. When I pay $125,000 for a car with fantastic acceleration I want to enjoy it. I can't drive 120 mph anywhere except on the strip.

I will admit that there is a slight chance of breakage and a question of warranty. But I honestly do not expect any problems from running at the strip. If the battery gets too warm there is an indication that it is cooling when maximum battery is engaged. My tires have slipped at all three tracks that I have run. I have never experienced wheel hop. Tesla can easily track where your car has been and how it was driven. But I do not believe that they would deny warranty since I am advocating Elons goal of electric cars by demonstrating how quick they are and encouraging sales. At any rate I accept the very, very small risk if any.

Since we are telling stories of breakage in our past cars I will add my 2 cents. In building my sandrail to be King of the Hill at Glamis sand dunes and the 100 yard sand drags I experienced many broken parts. Converting a 160 HP Volvo V6 to a 600 HP beast was not easy. Adding a turbocharger resulted in connecting rods protruding through the aluminum block. Carrillo rods solved that issue. New stronger pistons had to be made. A custom transaxle had to be fabricated, etc. Of course there was no warranty and I paid for all the breakage and new parts. This is a case where a motor is stressed beyond its design. But a Tesla is designed to run a 10.9 or better.

 

[P85DEE]

I go to the track for three reasons.
1. I enjoy the competition.
2. I enjoy showing the ICE motorheads what an electric car (Tesla) can do. Many are still not familiar with Tesla and appreciate seeing one in person. When I run 11.2+ I tell people that the new P100DL does 10.8 (waiting for the 10.7-).
3. The Auto Club and public safety agencies encourage racing at the strip not on the street. When I pay $125,000 for a car with fantastic acceleration I want to enjoy it. I can't drive 120 mph anywhere except on the strip.

I will admit that there is a slight chance of breakage and a question of warranty. But I honestly do not expect any problems from running at the strip. If the battery gets too warm there is an indication that it is cooling when maximum battery is engaged. My tires have slipped at all three tracks that I have run. I have never experienced wheel hop. Tesla can easily track where your car has been and how it was driven. But I do not believe that they would deny warranty since I am advocating Elons goal of electric cars by demonstrating how quick they are and encouraging sales. At any rate I accept the very, very small risk if any.

Since we are telling stories of breakage in our past cars I will add my 2 cents. In building my sandrail to be King of the Hill at Glamis sand dunes and the 100 yard sand drags I experienced many broken parts. Converting a 160 HP Volvo V6 to a 600 HP beast was not easy. Adding a turbocharger resulted in connecting rods protruding through the aluminum block. Carrillo rods solved that issue. New stronger pistons had to be made. A custom transaxle had to be fabricated, etc. Of course there was no warranty and I paid for all the breakage and new parts. This is a case where a motor is stressed beyond its design. But a Tesla is designed to run a 10.9 or better.

Well I certainly won't make light of your experiences. And I appreciate your telling of this one.

However I am compelled to say that when this sort of thing happens in a dedicated track car or dedicated off road vehicle that the enthusiast is tinkering with here and there on his own, the implications which "do not" center around potential physical injury are quite different from when they occur in a street licensed, in warranty, insured, 6 figure vehicle which is practically new that its owner may have just paid upfront for or even financed.

It's for this reason for that some of my own friends who still go to the track, will use a dedicated track car to do it.

These cars are R title, salvaged cars that they've gotten for very little and have modded to their hearts content.

They're nice cars. Hell you wouldn't even know they were R titled to look at them. Some look damn near new. I'm talks no Camaros, Goats, etc.

And when/if they bust something, the car sits until they decide to repair it or do something else with it

But if or when a mechanical failure bites them, their street vehicles are out of the game.

I've never done this. I've decided that when I go back to the track, it will be in a salvaged vehicle that I have time to tinker with in my leisure.

Like many, I've put brand new cars on the racetrack over my lifetime. And exposed myself to potentially having to repair them out of pocket to get them back in the road, or replace them outright.

But I have to say that none of them was a vehicle at this price point and as such it was easier to justify that exposure.

Now I'm not telling anyone not to track their Tesla, that's not my intent.

However it is my intent to be upfront and let those in here who might not know what risk they are exposing themselves to should they elect to do so.

I say what I say above not to be mean spirited, but again simply to inform.

 

[lolachampcar]

Wow, there are pages of drag racing and warranty talk all because someone suggested an owner run their car, show that it does not meet numbers promoted by the manufacturer then ask that manufacturer to "fix" the "problem".

All the discussion about racing and warranty is valid but the original issue seems to be getting lost. Perhaps this is intentional.

 

[TIppy]

Uh, yeah. And you agreed to those rules. You agreed to them when you signed the sales paperwork. Just because you don't like it now doesn't mean you can ignore it. Oh sure, you can try and force that in front of a judge. Which you would have to do, if it came to that. I wouldn't bet on your odds of winning.

I'm just saying. This is a pretty tried and true part of any limited warranty document. Don't take my word for it (you won't, I know) go chat up a lawyer. I'm sure one will talk to you for a free 15 minutes and explain it. You can buy me a beer afterward

You should talk to fiks' friend about getting in front of a judge about his GT-R. He could tell you about how manufacturers can't just be arbitrary about what they'll fix.

I have every legal right to confirm telsa's assertions with my independent testing. What better place to test the promised quarter mile time than at a drag strip. It's certainly much safer than the public streets. It meets the irrefutable requirements of a valid test. The car was designed to be able to accelerate from 0 to 118 mph without damage. What difference does the lat/lon of the location make?

Again, if I were beating the car up racing it competitively or just on a regular basis I wouldn't expect tesla to fix any damage caused by that. In that case I would have caused the damage by using the car in a manner for which it wasn't designed. But as you have experienced yourself, there's a good chance they would fix it.

I don't think my testing of the car will precipitate any of this. But as you say there is a possibility for it all to go badly and end in a protracted battle. This can happen even if your tires have never touched vht. If you require certainty, I don't recommend this path either.
In that case it's better just to take your lumps.

But if you like we can keep going around this loop indefinitely, or just agree to disagree.

 

[msnow]

I do. I linked it a while back but here is the entire warranty document for North America. Directly off Tesla's site. Look on the top of page 4. And you are right, I assume those risks because I don't live in fear at home



Because I've been there and I've done that. I am telling you that you are out of line with your assumptions here. But as some have said before me. It's no one on this thread you need to convince. it's between you and Tesla, should something happen.

Trying to compare what happened to my Mustang to what could happen to a Tesla is not a reasonable comparison. I told my story about the mustang to explain that things happen at a drag strip that are not accounted for.

If anything, it's more of a risk in certain ways, to take a Tesla to a drag strip because there aren't enough data points to determine common faults from racing. The car itself performs admirably at the track. But what if the battery critically overheats and the car shuts down. You gotta go to the service center and explain why you needed a tow from a drag strip. or maybe there is long term degradation to the motors or the battery. Or the extra bulk of the car, combined with the wheels not slipping as readily could have repercussions on seals and bushings. The point is, we don't know what could break. Assuming Tesla will just fix it is folly.

Thanks for attaching this. So here's the relevant bullet (bolded) and below that is the definition of auto racing. This tells me that if you aren't competing against another driver or if you are not on "closed public roads" it's not auto racing.

• Driving the vehicle off-road, over uneven, rough, damaged or hazardous surfaces, including but not limited to, curbs, potholes, unfinished roads, debris, or other obstacles, or in competition, racing or autocross or for any other purposes for which the vehicle is not designed;
  
  auto racing
  noun
  1.
  the sport of racing automobiles in which drivers compete against each other on a course designed for racing or on closed public roads.
  

 

[P85DEE]

Wow, there are pages of drag racing and warranty talk all because someone suggested an owner run their car, show that it does not meet numbers promoted by the manufacturer then ask that manufacturer to "fix" the "problem".

All the discussion about racing and warranty is valid but the original issue seems to be getting lost. Perhaps this is intentional.

Before you start speaking to people's motives, perhaps you should get a grip.

Yes, he is discussing putting his car in a track in an attempt to show that it does not meet spec and use that in any effort going forward

And he's being told that should he do so, that a couple scenarios exist.

One is that they can promptly flag his warranty for tracking the car in the first place in retaliation.

Two, he could suffer a mechanical failure or misadventure attempting to gather his "evidence" which might not be covered under his warranty.

Thirdly, whatever info he gathers, may not be enough to even prove his point anyway.

He's only being told, and anyone else contemplating following suit, that perhaps he needs to put some more thought into his plan in light of the above and in assessing his risks.

That is all.

 

[TIppy]

One is that they can promptly flag his warranty for tracking the car in the first place in retaliation.

In retaliation for what?

Thirdly, whatever info he gathers, may not be enough to even prove his point anyway.

It doesn't have to prove anything. It's enough to get them to outline why they think it doesn't prove the point, implying what the requirements are to be successful. They might well say your car has to weigh 4689 lbs, and then we'd know that was the correct weight of the press car.

 

[St Charles]

You should talk to fiks' friend about getting in front of a judge about his GT-R. He could tell you about how manufacturers can't just be arbitrary about what they'll fix.

I have every legal right to confirm telsa's assertions with my independent testing. What better place to test the promised quarter mile time than at a drag strip. It's certainly much safer than the public streets. It meets the irrefutable requirements of a valid test. The car was designed to be able to accelerate from 0 to 118 mph without damage. What difference does the lat/lon of the location make?

I agree with all of this with the only exception that you are, legally, off road with intent to perform actions that would be illegal to perform, on road. If you want to define that for yourself as not racing, then go ahead. it's no one on this forum you have to try to sell that argument to.

Again, if I were beating the car up racing it competitively or just on a regular basis I wouldn't expect tesla to fix any damage caused by that. In that case I would have caused the damage by using the car in a manner for which it wasn't designed. But as you have experienced yourself, there's a good chance they would fix it.

Maybe they fix problems, maybe they don't. The point is they have verbiage in their warranty that directly states that they don't have to.

I don't think my testing of the car will precipitate any of this. But as you say there is a possibility for it all to go badly and end in a protracted battle. This can happen even if your tires have never touched vht. If you require certainty, I don't recommend this path either.
In that case it's better just to take your lumps.

I TOTALLY agree with you.

But if you like we can keep going around this loop indefinitely, or just agree to disagree.

I agree. we are arguing to argue. you are gonna see it one way and my personal experience has lead me to be more cautious about discussing my off road actions with a manufacturer. I just don't want to see someone run into warranty issues trying to prove or disprove this magical 10.9 number.

Thanks for attaching this. So here's the relevant bullet (bolded) and below that is the definition of auto racing. This tells me that if you aren't competing against another driver or if you are not on "closed public roads" it's not auto racing.

• Driving the vehicle off-road, over uneven, rough, damaged or hazardous surfaces, including but not limited to, curbs, potholes, unfinished roads, debris, or other obstacles, or in competition, racing or autocross or for any other purposes for which the vehicle is not designed;
  
  auto racing
  noun
  1.
  the sport of racing automobiles in which drivers compete against each other on a course designed for racing or on closed public roads.

Drag strips are legally defined as "off road". This is exactly why you can't get hauled off to jail for what you may, or may not, do while you are there. Drag strips are the safe, sanctioned, and preferred venues for such activities. I would like to make myself VERY clear on this. A drag strip is THE ONLY place we should be testing this 10.9 claim out. Anywhere else is tantamount to public endangerment, reckless driving, and a host of other very illegal, very consequential offenses. if you are gonna do it, DO IT AT A DRAG STRIP.

Just be aware of the risks you are taking while you do so.

 

[TIppy]

Drag strips are legally defined as "off road".

OK maybe one more comment, and I give you leave to respond. I don't think this is the meaning of off road in the tesla warranty as they exclude this limitation for the model x.

 

[P85DEE]

I agree with all of this with the only exception that you are, legally, off road with intent to perform actions that would be illegal to perform, on road. If you want to define that for yourself as not racing, then go ahead. it's no one on this forum you have to try to sell that argument to.



Maybe they fix problems, maybe they don't. The point is they have verbiage in their warranty that directly states that they don't have to.




I TOTALLY agree with you.



I agree. we are arguing to argue. you are gonna see it one way and my personal experience has lead me to be more cautious about discussing my off road actions with a manufacturer. I just don't want to see someone run into warranty issues trying to prove or disprove this magical 10.9 number.





Drag strips are legally defined as "off road". This is exactly why you can't get hauled off to jail for what you may, or may not, do while you are there. Drag strips are the safe, sanctioned, and preferred venues for such activities. I would like to make myself VERY clear on this. A drag strip is THE ONLY place we should be testing this 10.9 claim out. Anywhere else is tantamount to public endangerment, reckless driving, and a host of other very illegal, very consequential offenses. if you are gonna do it, DO IT AT A DRAG STRIP.

Just be aware of the risks you are taking while you do so.

Very well stated and I totally agree.

Also, I too have said about all I'm going to say about my own track incidents.

Tippy, you're a grown man and can do what you like.

I'm just pointing out a few of the pitfalls that one could run in to off road.

You asked "retaliation for what?"

Retaliation for your attempting to cause them problems and effectively trying to strong arm them.

You bring them what you think are the "goods" from your drag strip results and go in with a posture demanding that they "fix" your inability to run 10.9, they could very well tell you; "we're not fixing a *******m thing, and furthermore now that we know that you are tracking the car, you'd better make damn sure that you don't bring it in here for any major warranty work. That's what we're going to give you for your efforts to dredge up $*** on us over this matter. Your warranty is flagged. Put that in your pipe and smoke it."

 

[msnow]

I agree with all of this with the only exception that you are, legally, off road with intent to perform actions that would be illegal to perform, on road. If you want to define that for yourself as not racing, then go ahead. it's no one on this forum you have to try to sell that argument to.



Maybe they fix problems, maybe they don't. The point is they have verbiage in their warranty that directly states that they don't have to.




I TOTALLY agree with you.



I agree. we are arguing to argue. you are gonna see it one way and my personal experience has lead me to be more cautious about discussing my off road actions with a manufacturer. I just don't want to see someone run into warranty issues trying to prove or disprove this magical 10.9 number.





Drag strips are legally defined as "off road". This is exactly why you can't get hauled off to jail for what you may, or may not, do while you are there. Drag strips are the safe, sanctioned, and preferred venues for such activities. I would like to make myself VERY clear on this. A drag strip is THE ONLY place we should be testing this 10.9 claim out. Anywhere else is tantamount to public endangerment, reckless driving, and a host of other very illegal, very consequential offenses. if you are gonna do it, DO IT AT A DRAG STRIP.

Just be aware of the risks you are taking while you do so.

Do you have a source you can share on the off road = drag strip definition comment? I'm not a racer but in the years I worked for Motor Trend we considered them two entirely differnt things so something must have changed.

 

[TIppy]

Retaliation for your attempting to cause them problems and effectively trying to strong arm them.

So now it's strong arming to ask for something to be fixed on your car? You don't have to be nasty about it. Just politely point out that your car doesn't seem to be performing as expected. Could you please fix it?

Man, you've completely flip-flopped on tesla. Now they are jack booted goons who will turn us over to the authorities and take every request for service as a personal affront and immediately retaliate. There's no need for them to be defensive about setting us straight on the performance of our cars.

 

[St Charles]

I would like to preface everything I say with I fully support anyone who goes to the track to prove out the 10.9 claim. As a participant myself, I want more people to go to the track and show people what the Model S can do. One of my favorite things is to talk about the car to surprised participants at the strip after I make a pass. This is an experience that I think everyone who paid for Ludicrous Mode should have

OK maybe one more comment, and I give you leave to respond. I don't think this is the meaning of off road in the tesla warranty as they exclude this limitation for the model x.

Maybe. I see where you are getting tho. And I am sure they also mean mud/dirt racing. At the end of the day, the answer would come from your Tesla service department on whether they would actually cover a claim based on what happened and where. I looked around a bit and what I did find is that the current Camaro ZL1 actually has clauses in it's warranty that discuss test and tune vs sanctioned racing. Ford is also a bit of a gray area, unless you use their Line Lock feature on the current Mustang. This will apparently cause warranty issues.

Like I said above, it's human interaction 101. Know what your service center is willing to do/not do. If they say you are good to go taking the Model S to the trip to test performance then you are good to go. Hell, they may be totally cool with you actually participating in actual racing events. All I am saying is that my total accumulated personal experience screams to steer clear of discussing this with the service center unless absolutely necessary. YMMV.

 

[P85DEE]

So now it's strong arming to ask for something to be fixed on your car? You don't have to be nasty about it. Just politely point out that your car doesn't seem to be performing as expected. Could you please fix it?

Man, you've completely flip-flopped on tesla. Now they are jack booted goons who will turn us over to the authorities and take every request for service as a personal affront and immediately retaliate. There's no need for them to be defensive about setting us straight on the performance of our cars.

Any car manufacturer will defend itself.

Tesla is no different.

We've seen it with them refusing to sell a car to a gentleman who bad mouthed them a little more than they thought he ought to have.

We're seeing it with the European lawsuit defenses they're putting up.

We saw it with the worker who died at the plant.

We're seeing it with the autopilot defenses they're putting up.

There is nothing "jack booted" about that.

Tesla will defend itself against anything they perceive as an affront as will any auto manufacturer.

Like I say, you are free to pursue this as you wish.

Asking them nicely is certainly the more sensible way of approaching matters. However it carries with it no assurance that they will comply.

They follow and monitor this board, which is something else to consider. They likely know very well of this 10.9 discussion and of the horsepower discussion.

You can politely ask them as you say, and I can just about guaran damn tee you that they will tell you to go pound sand.

They've already told Lolachampcar that he can go pound sand over his concern.

They've told msnow to go pound sand about his battery.

The next move is theirs if either one of them chooses to ratchet it up.

Tesla will tell you to go pound sand as well, and when they do, the next move will be yours.

You'll either have to ratchet it up, or back off. St Charles has already elaborated on some of the drawbacks to ratcheting such a situation up.

However, I'm betting from reading what you have to say that you'll ratchet it up. No more Mr. Nice Guy. You'll have to show them that you mean business, or not.

You'll want to bump heads with them.

And when you do, well.....

Good luck.

 

[TIppy]

Any car manufacturer will defend itself.

Tesla is no different.

We've seen it with them refusing to sell a car to a gentleman who bad mouthed them a little more than they thought he ought to have.

We're seeing it with the European lawsuit defenses they're putting up.

We saw it with the worker who died at the plant.

We're seeing it with the autopilot defenses they're putting up.

There is nothing "jack booted" about that.

Tesla will defend itself against anything they perceive as an affront as will any auto manufacturer.

Like I say, you are free to pursue this as you wish.

Asking them nicely is certainly the more sensible way if approaching matters. However it carries with it no assurance that they will comply.

They follow and monitor this board, which is something else to consider. They know of this 10.9 discussion and of the horsepower discussion.

You can politely ask them as you say, and I can just about guaran damn tee you that they will tell you to go pound sand.

They've already told Lolachampcar that he can go pound sand over his concern.

They've told msnow to go pound sand about his battery.

The next move is theirs.

They'll tell you to go pound sand as well, and when they do, the next move will be yours.

You'll either have to ratchet it up, or back off. St Charles has already elaborated on some of the drawbacks to ratcheting such a situation up.

However, I'm betting from reading what you have to say that you'll ratchet it up. No more Mr. Nice Guy. You'll have to show them that you mean business, or not.

You'll want to bump heads with them.

And when you do, well.....

Good luck.

What are they defending themselves against? You now seem to be taking the stance that there is some deficiency with the v1 p90dl that they will be defensive about. If not, I don't understand why there would be any confrontation at all. They would just politely explain why my particular car isn't performing as I think it should. At this point we have no information at all from them.

Ratcheting and bumping is seldom fruitful. I would try to maintain a civil tone as I moved forward with my negotiations. But I'm not as sure as you are that it should become contentious.

 

[P85DEE]

What are they defending themselves against. You now seem to be taking the stance that there is some deficiency with the v1 p90dl that they will be defensive about. If not, I don't understand why there would be any confrontation at all. They would just politely explain why my particular car isn't performing as I think it should.

To your part in bold, hardly.

They would be defending themselves against any claims of having shortchanged people, or that something was "wrong" with the car because you didn't run 10.9, whether or not some of us believe it to be a legitimate claim.

But at some point your "complaint" would either have to be "something is wrong with my car because I didn't run a 10.9 in it" OR. "you shortchanged me. This car can't do 10.9".

Your "customer concern" will have to fall along the lines of one of those two.

There would likely be no initial "confrontation".

They'd likely do a cursory examination of the car, pronounce it fit, and then just politely tell you to buzz off.

They certainly aren't going to state that something is wrong with it because you didn't run 10.9.

At that point it's your move.

Ratcheting and bumping is seldom fruitful. I would try to maintain a civil tone as I moved forward with my negotiations.

Ok, so you go to them, they inspect your car and pronounce it fit as delivered. Tell you there's nothing wrong with it.

It takes more than one party to "negotiate".

What incentive would they have to "negotiate" with you over something that they claim they've already delivered.

Why would they "negotiate" with you over a car they pronounced fit that you claim that something is wrong with because you didn't run 10.9?

But to your point of "negotiations" well you negotiate from a position of strength.

It is unlikely that they will "negotiate" when they have the option to "dictate".

And they have the "strength". Part of the strength they're holding is in your warranty, which you jeopardized in an attempt to fortify your position for your "concern". They aren't stupid.

In it, and in what they can do with it, they're holding the cards.

But I'm not as sure as you are that it should become contentious.

Only one way to truly find out.

Good luck.

 

[TIppy]

They'd just politely tell you to buzz off.

Who is this and what have you done with P85DEE? Whose claiming they shortchanged anybody? My car just doesn't seem to have the power it should. Is there something you can do to fix it? Why would they tell me to buzz off? They've always courteously answered any questions I've put to them in the service department. Telling me to buzz off would be adversarial. If they told me my 11.2 was within the fleet norm, that would be some good information. But they might even be more forthcoming if I asked for more information.

 

[msnow]

Who is this and what have you done with P85DEE? Whose claiming they shortchanged anybody? My car just doesn't seem to have the power it should. Is there something you can do to fix it? Why would they tell me to buzz off? They've always courteously answered any questions I've put to them in the service department. Telling me to buzz off would be adversarial. If they told me my 11.2 was within the fleet norm, that would be some good information.

That would not be "information" because a) they would be admitting the entire fleet had a problem of not being able to achieve the promised specs and b) them just saying it means nothing without the supporting data which you won't get because of "a".