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Uncle Paul
Well-Known Member
Taking all this into consideration I believe the biggest differentiator between the S/X and the Model 3 is that you can get the bigger vehicles right away, and it will take over a year to get yourself into a Model 3 unless you pre-ordered one a year ago.
Getting the $10,000 tax credit makes the prices close enough, that ordering a S for quick delivery, as opposed to perhaps getting a Model 3 after it is expired (or eliminated) makes it an appealing proposition
I have a Mercedes E-350, and while it is a pretty good car, it in no way compares to my X. It's only advantage is that it is more nimble in the city, but otherwise is is in most way inferior to the X.
With limited test drives or physical inspection, many will feel that waiting for the not yet available Model 3 might be an unacceptable risk.
The biggest differences are the comfort, quiet and driving experience that only a fully electric vehicle can provide.
Tesla...it drives like no other.
Getting the $10,000 tax credit makes the prices close enough, that ordering a S for quick delivery, as opposed to perhaps getting a Model 3 after it is expired (or eliminated) makes it an appealing proposition
I have a Mercedes E-350, and while it is a pretty good car, it in no way compares to my X. It's only advantage is that it is more nimble in the city, but otherwise is is in most way inferior to the X.
With limited test drives or physical inspection, many will feel that waiting for the not yet available Model 3 might be an unacceptable risk.
The biggest differences are the comfort, quiet and driving experience that only a fully electric vehicle can provide.
Tesla...it drives like no other.
Interesting point. As a former owner of several Mercedes E-class cars in a row, I was feeling nostalgic on Saturday when a friend of mine brought his new (to him) used E320 to my house to show me. I had had the same model and had fond memories of it. I sat in it and was remembering the seats, adjustable headrests, movable center armrest, storage compartments, and so. the leather was soft, the seats firm, the wood nicely finished, everything fit as it should, and the doors had that nice solid "thunk." Then he said I could drive it.
Suddenly I felt as if I was driving a very old, very tired car. The lack of easy acceleration from a stop, the noise, the creeping ahead at stoplights -- I was actually laughing as I tried to get it to move as I wanted it to. There was (most likely) nothing wrong with the car -- it just was a car that no longer felt lively or responsive. And I am sure that I would have loved it before I had my Model S. The E320 had as much or more power as any of the cars I had ever owned before the Model S, and I am not a performance guy -- I only have a 70D!
But in those few minutes I was definitely reminded of what the Tesla is all about.
Yes, it is true my Model S is much newer than my friend's E320 and that was part of the difference. And yes, I do wish the Model S interior was nicer in all the ways that people talk about (better upholstery, better seat design, better lighting, etc.) but as much as I envy the comforts and materials of the Mercedes, I don't think i could back to driving an ICE.
Now, if and when Mercedes (or BMW or Volvo or Audi, etc.) actually brings out a competent E class all-electric car, then Tesla will have a run for its money on these type of differences....
ahkahn
Active Member
Certainly I can't speak to the interior quality of the European VW's, but here in the US they were no better than a Chevrolet. I don't doubt that the Model 3 will have a lesser quality interior than a BMW 3-series... but you don't buy a Tesla for luxury, just like you don't buy a BMW for fuel efficiency.
As for VW, we all know what their software engineers were working on....
Uncle Paul
Well-Known Member
A new base Model S is $69,500. (can even get +/- $10,000 off for a new stock or CPO)Probably comes better equipped than a base Model 3.
Model 3 is expected to have an average selling price of $50,000, so with a $10,000 tax credit it might make good sense to buy a base new Model S now, instead of waiting over a year for a slightly less expensive Model 3 (That might acually go up in price if demand remains strong)
Base S will have larger capacity battery, larger wheels, larger brakes, more room, better sound system, free supercharging for life, more color and option choices, larger trunk, desired hatch design, superior prestige, etc.
Certaintly something to consider.
Just to be clear, as someone who was sat and owned pretty much the entire spectrum of German car sizes, there is a big difference between E Class and S Class, 5 Series and 7 Series or Audi A6 and Audi A8. The latter usually feature many systems unique to them compared to the rest of the range.
Frankly Tesla is so far behind, that as said, I'm leaning on them being wiser at lowering the base model price of Model S by 10k (so aligning 3 as A4 price and S as A6 price), adding some optional interior improvements that people can pay extra for. At least within the E Class/5 Series/A6 segment Tesla has some chance at arriving at a somewhat comparable interior - but make no mistake, they still miss a lot of stuff even the C Class/3 Series/A4 have...
I've never been linear about my car history, so I've gone back to smaller and less luxurious cars and then back up again, for example when a new interesting model has appeared, but even with my history, Model S and to an extent Model X as well certainly were unusual steps "backward" in many ways on the interior and comfort feature department. They are missing stuff that I've had in much smaller premium cars.
But compared to the Model S, the Audi A8 I came from was just on a different planet.
Many of these criticisms of the Tesla interior compare it to the interior of vehicles of a similar price, which is a comparison that is often made.
This is a Fallacy Of Division. The misstep is in the concept that a "$100k+ car" is one (or a few) specific "$100k+ car component(s)." This neglects comparison of all components - the sum of the whole.
Note that I am neither praising nor criticizing any vehicle with this statement. This is about adjusting thought processes to avoid mistaken premises/conclusions and unrealistic expectations.
This is a Fallacy Of Division. The misstep is in the concept that a "$100k+ car" is one (or a few) specific "$100k+ car component(s)." This neglects comparison of all components - the sum of the whole.
Note that I am neither praising nor criticizing any vehicle with this statement. This is about adjusting thought processes to avoid mistaken premises/conclusions and unrealistic expectations.
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
I don't doubt that the Model 3 will have a lesser quality interior than a BMW 3-series... but you don't buy a Tesla for luxury, just like you don't buy a BMW for fuel efficiency.
Funny you should mention that aspect in particular, as the fuel efficiency of my 330d is excellent actually, and one of the best aspects of my car. Very good performance versus efficiency ratio. Then again, it IS a Diesel after all
See, you are contradicting yourself in your own post whilst proving what many people say: no one buys the base version of any car, not even car rental companies. And as soon as you add even just a few options, the Model S price shoots up.
Plus, that tax credit doesn't apply everywhere. Over here there is absolutely zero incentive to buy a Model S for example. So the base price of the smallest Model S is indeed twice the proposed base price of the Model 3. That is if the 35K USD base price equates to about the same amount in Euro (which given the experience with Model S and X is something I highly doubt, but we will see).
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Frankly, a Model X loses even against the interior of an Audi A4 when considering interior features and quality (some will of course argue they like the interior design of Tesla better, fair enough).
Tesla is just that far behind, no matter how you slice it and dice it, on the interior.
Some of the disagreement about interiors is a matter of opinion and aesthetics. Which of these do you prefer? I like the plain one.
As far as I can tell the 350 isn't available in the new generation in the US, so you are comparing a car design that rolled off the line first in 2009 with one that's not even two years old. The standard here really should be the new E-Class which launched around the same time. And then Mercedes is still more old luxury even thought they try to appeal to a younger generation, but someone already posted the new A8 which shows that you can take that even a step further.
But if we are looking at Model S vs. Model 3 the issue is that both cars will offer this.
All the stuff that people for years have said justifies the price of the Model S over German competitors in the segment are now pretty moot, because you can get that in the 3. Long range EV. Supercharger access. Autopilot. The tech that comes with a Tesla (although I still find that a bit debatable) apart from the 2nd screen. Really the only big plus to me really is the trunk space and might also be why the Model 3 isn't a real hatchback.
Tesla has gone "all in" on Full Self Driving. While it's not clear when this will happen (we still don't have AP2 working at AP1 levels, 7 months after their first projection of a December 2016 completion), Tesla is fully committed to delivering FSD in all of their cars.
Once FSD is operational, the driver will be less involved with actually driving the car - so it might make sense to do a major redesign of the cabin at that point - providing better support for the driver to do something other than actually driving the car.
Depending upon how long Tesla believes this is going to take - if they believe it is in the next 2-3 years, it may not make much economic sense for them to introduce an interior redesign soon - and then do it again when human driving becomes optional.
Once the person in the driver's seat isn't actually driving the car (at least most of the time), we could see some huge changes in the interior - to support the driver doing other activities, such as facing the rear seats to engage with the other passengers, watching videos, using their mobile devices, ...
While Tesla doesn't have a number of the features other manufacturers put into the interiors of comparably priced cars, the biggest frustration with our new S 100D continues to be the inferior onboard software - minimal smartphone integration, numerous user interface design flaws and bugs, and lack of many features that users expect to see in a car priced $100K. If Tesla could make the long needed significant improvements in the infotainment software - at least for us, the other missing interior features aren't really that important.
Once FSD is operational, the driver will be less involved with actually driving the car - so it might make sense to do a major redesign of the cabin at that point - providing better support for the driver to do something other than actually driving the car.
Depending upon how long Tesla believes this is going to take - if they believe it is in the next 2-3 years, it may not make much economic sense for them to introduce an interior redesign soon - and then do it again when human driving becomes optional.
Once the person in the driver's seat isn't actually driving the car (at least most of the time), we could see some huge changes in the interior - to support the driver doing other activities, such as facing the rear seats to engage with the other passengers, watching videos, using their mobile devices, ...
While Tesla doesn't have a number of the features other manufacturers put into the interiors of comparably priced cars, the biggest frustration with our new S 100D continues to be the inferior onboard software - minimal smartphone integration, numerous user interface design flaws and bugs, and lack of many features that users expect to see in a car priced $100K. If Tesla could make the long needed significant improvements in the infotainment software - at least for us, the other missing interior features aren't really that important.
gavine
Petrol Head turned EV Enthusiast
I paid $72K for my Model S 60 with pano so there are many who didn't pay "at least $100K". Not to mention, the $7500 federal tax credit and no sales tax in NJ so more like $60K net to me? That's a lot less than $100K.
A base Model S already costs $13K less than a base A8 ($20,500 less if you count the federal tax credit, as you should), and unlike the A8 it is electric (adds another few K in gas savings over 3 years). That extra $25,000 gets you a nicer interior.
If the Model 3 were a hatchback, I would for sure buy it instead of a Model S and save tens of thousands of dollars. The kids will complain because they are cramped, but they will thank me when I pay off their college debts.
I made no statements about the features/quality (objective or subjective) of the Tesla interior. To which parts of my message are you addressing?
As I understood it, you made the point that a car's price being the sum of its whole needs to be considered, not just the price category and corresponding interior:
Mediocrates said:
To me that included the implication that we shouldn't look at Tesla's price tag and compare its interior to other cars in its price. I responded by noting that Tesla's interior is missing stuff cars half its starting price have, so the idea that it is merely the "rest of the car" being expensive - and that's why Tesla's interiors are missing stuff - does not IMO hold water.
Most likely Tesla interiors are missing stuff because they are not very experienced or good at making interiors and haven't really been focusing on it. Their seating debacles are a notable case in point.
IMO very, very little is about the aesthetics. Most people on TMC (myself included) seem to like the simple design direction itself.
Much more is about lack of interior functionality, an area where Tesla's are unnecessarily spartan.
IMO even hint of the fallacy that having a nice drivetrain (which is basically what your otherwise nice post is all about) somehow precludes a nice interior, or excuses the lack thereof, is not helpful.
Tesla has been going towards worse when it comes to interiors, it is not 2013 anymore and the interiors have not been improving, they have gone towards worse in spots. Tesla will have a rude awakening one day if people keep giving them a pass on this.
There is no reason why Model S/X could or should not have a more functional interior as well as more improved upholstery options (instead of a Toyota-like spartan options palette), other than Tesla's priorities as well as abilities/choices.
