Ontario EV Rebates Cancelled July 11, 2018

[aaronbrighton]

Samina and I have been in contact with 2 different law firms on the viability of a class action. She had feedback today that because Tesla granted refunds, that largely kills off the concept of potential damages so her firm wasn't willing to proceed. I had been in touch with a firm that specializes in class actions and while I was originally told it held some interest, I've been unable to generate any further responses and so with Samina's feedback, I won't bother pushing them further. I'm sure if it had legs they'd be calling me. Also was in contact with someone higher up at Tesla but nothing panned out there either.

This is not to say that you couldn't still proceed if you had deep pockets and were politically motivated but I think I'd rather buy a P100D And not to say it's 100% over for anyone still doing things in the background. Everyone has their own interpretation of it being "over" and I certainly don't seek to alter that.

Not really surprised these efforts have born little fruit however I think it was important to try and exhaust all possibilities and as a group I think we've done a great job of that. No harm in trying. It can be a learning exercise.

I hope everyone retains a long memory of this but stay positive. Don't let the system beat you up. Make Ontario good despite Ford.

I will patiently wait things out and see if the feds deliver anything. Interesting to see some snapping up remaining dealer stock. Not a big fan of that path in light of what's transpired but supportive from an environmental perspective and of course if you needed a vehicle then at least it wasn't an ICE.

Now, how to put more pressure on the feds

Was thinking about this while driving the M3 earlier today ... Perhaps approaching the class action from the point of people losing out on their deposits (or in this case not, due to Tesla's Goodwill) is the wrong approach.

What about all those who went ahead with their order/received car, or were unaware of the cancellation of the EV credit for Tesla's specifically. I'd imagine those people have all taken a 14k loss, which would be merit for a class action.

To add to that, based on recent discussion of how the rules state Tesla's should actually be allowed in the rebate based on the published wording (no mention of "franchised" dealers, in official posting). Would those who go ahead and order, and then are told nope sorry -- they will have taken a 14k loss and be possibly capable parties to a class action?

 

[felixculpas]

Was thinking about this while driving the M3 earlier today ... Perhaps approaching the class action from the point of people losing out on their deposits (or in this case not, due to Tesla's Goodwill) is the wrong approach.

What about all those who went ahead with their order/received car, or were unaware of the cancellation of the EV credit for Tesla's specifically. I'd imagine those people have all taken a 14k loss, which would be merit for a class action.

To add to that, based on recent discussion of how the rules state Tesla's should actually be allowed in the rebate based on the published wording (no mention of "franchised" dealers, in official posting). Would those who go ahead and order, and then are told nope sorry -- they will have taken a 14k loss and be possibly capable parties to a class action?

As has been mentioned...caveat emptor - buyer beware is a very real concept and as it applies here, the consumer is responsible for understanding the nuances of the EHVIP program. No one has taken a 14k loss. Perceived losses are not real losses. No one reached in your pocket and took out $14k. That combined with Tesla's kind support with allowing refunds really kills any lawyers desire to take on a class action. This is not to say you couldn't sue regardless but that would be out of pocket losses if it wasn't a favorable outcome.

I also believe that the consensus here is that the rule changes were those of government policy/directive and there's very little you can do if that's the case. Provincial governments have an astonishing amount of latitude in their ability to change things on the fly with little to no repercussions for doing so. There's no winning against that stacked deck. Hopefully for many, this will be a wake up call regarding politics and the importance of doing research and voting accordingly.

There may very well be a winnable private party case in there somewhere but very few people would be willing to take the risk I'd imagine and as I say, there is no ability to pursue a class action when you haven't suffered damages. No lawyer is going to take on a class action for this situation as they only get paid when/if you win or a settlement has been concluded. Even then it can be pennies on the dollar after legal fees.

It will be interesting to see to what degree people's frustration and/or anger is displaced to the federal government if they don't step in and provide something. Their environmental track record is all over the map. Kinder Morgan Pipeline is a disaster. Imagine all that money being put towards renewable energy projects.

 

[sitter_k]

It will be interesting to see to what degree people's frustration and/or anger is displaced to the federal government if they don't step in and provide something. Their environmental track record is all over the map. Kinder Morgan Pipeline is a disaster. Imagine all that money being put towards renewable energy projects.

If your voting interests are the environment where else are you going to go?

 

[Towner]

Hi @Towner, Here you go:

Amazing, Thank you

 

[felixculpas]

If your voting interests are the environment where else are you going to go?

Mars?

Do you mean geographically or which party and at what level?

 

[aaronbrighton]

As has been mentioned...caveat emptor - buyer beware is a very real concept and as it applies here, the consumer is responsible for understanding the nuances of the EHVIP program. No one has taken a 14k loss. Perceived losses are not real losses. No one reached in your pocket and took out $14k. That combined with Tesla's kind support with allowing refunds really kills any lawyers desire to take on a class action. This is not to say you couldn't sue regardless but that would be out of pocket losses if it wasn't a favorable outcome.

I also believe that the consensus here is that the rule changes were those of government policy/directive and there's very little you can do if that's the case. Provincial governments have an astonishing amount of latitude in their ability to change things on the fly with little to no repercussions for doing so. There's no winning against that stacked deck. Hopefully for many, this will be a wake up call regarding politics and the importance of doing research and voting accordingly.

There may very well be a winnable private party case in there somewhere but very few people would be willing to take the risk I'd imagine and as I say, there is no ability to pursue a class action when you haven't suffered damages. No lawyer is going to take on a class action for this situation as they only get paid when/if you win or a settlement has been concluded. Even then it can be pennies on the dollar after legal fees.

It will be interesting to see to what degree people's frustration and/or anger is displaced to the federal government if they don't step in and provide something. Their environmental track record is all over the map. Kinder Morgan Pipeline is a disaster. Imagine all that money being put towards renewable energy projects.

I suppose the only valid legal argument in their is the interpretation of:

• Eligible vehicles that have been delivered to consumers, registered, and plated on or before July 11 will receive the incentive.
• Inventory that dealers have on lots or orders made by dealerships with manufacturers on or before July 11, will also be honoured for the incentive provided that the vehicle is delivered to consumers, registered, and plated by September 10.

Including the registered Tesla "dealerships"... One goes on that opinion and proceeds with accepting the car before Sept 10 - and then is refused the 14k incentive.

Also, according to some quick desk research Mercedes Benz locations downtown toronto are not franchises - they are corporately owned. So, again, were they contacted/excluded like Tesla? EDIT. I called Mercedes Benz and a GLC 350e PHEV ordered before the order cut off and delivered before the delivery cut off would qualify.... despite not being a franchised dealer (according to the sales rep at MB Midtown). WTF!

Another interesting point to consider is if the government allows rebates for individuals buying cars from these non-franchized locations, and one was to come across of evidence of that -- could be used in some legal way?

 

[felixculpas]

The legal arguments you are making would all be in a private lawsuit, not a class action. As I say, I wouldn't be surprised if there WAS a legal dispute however you could also say there are probably a million lawsuits just waiting to happen on any given day but they don't materialize because once you start down that rabbit hole, you realize that the cost and wear and tear on you just isn't worth it.

People usually sue when they are forced into it with little other recourse and when much large amounts than 14k is involved but also less so on principal alone. I can't imagine personally suing the government for this amount. Judges sometimes badger the parties into figuring out a settlement so one side doesn't have to lose. So you settle at 7k and pay 5k in legal fees leaving you with 2k for all your trouble? I could see that as an outcome. Not worthy of my time or stress regardless of the principal of the matter...sad as that may be. What if you go all in and win and then they appeal?

What's to stop the government from re-wording/re-clarifying their position on EHVIP that takes away the GLC 350e PHEV argument?

Think of this as dealing with a school yard bully that has the support of many including the principal. What options do you have?

Run away to fight another day. Fight with your pocketbook. Fight with you decisions, Fight with your vote. And never forget.

 

[jkirkwood001]

...Provincial governments have an astonishing amount of latitude in their ability to change things on the fly with little to no repercussions for doing so....

To be fair, the government didn't force anything on any citizen or company - like Venezuela repatriating companies assets. All they did was withdraw their own give-away. We took it for granted. Like you say, they didn't reach into our pockets. They just showed us cash in one hand, then pulled it away when we went to take it.

 

[ZooSean]

I suppose the only valid legal argument in their is the interpretation of:

• Eligible vehicles that have been delivered to consumers, registered, and plated on or before July 11 will receive the incentive.
• Inventory that dealers have on lots or orders made by dealerships with manufacturers on or before July 11, will also be honoured for the incentive provided that the vehicle is delivered to consumers, registered, and plated by September 10.

Including the registered Tesla "dealerships"... One goes on that opinion and proceeds with accepting the car before Sept 10 - and then is refused the 14k incentive.

There will be some argument if Tesla Canada has some Model 3 in stock and not being sold before July 11. But There is no such cars exist. After July 11, only end customer is ordering from Tesla not Tesla Canada as dealer.

 

[Beeblebrox42]

This question is for anyone that has already submitted the EVCIP application... What did you use for the receipt for the charger itself. The application says that it needs to be purchased from a Canadian retailer, dealer or website. Since I ordered it online, I am concerned it will not be considered a "Canadian" provider. I am in the process of reaching out to [email protected] to see if they can provide something... but if one of the fellow members has dealt with this, then please let me know yoru approach... (or point me to a post/reply that answers this).
CHEERS!

 

[Buggle]

This question is for anyone that has already submitted the EVCIP application... What did you use for the receipt for the charger itself. The application says that it needs to be purchased from a Canadian retailer, dealer or website. Since I ordered it online, I am concerned it will not be considered a "Canadian" provider. I am in the process of reaching out to [email protected] to see if they can provide something... but if one of the fellow members has dealt with this, then please let me know yoru approach... (or point me to a post/reply that answers this).
CHEERS!

The invoice is from the local dealer, so it's fine. Submit that.

 

[sitter_k]

Mars?

Do you mean geographically or which party and at what level?

Well I mean, if you care about the environment which federal party are you going to vote for....From my point of view, you're stuck with the Liberals. I don't think anything the PC's will ever make any strong commitment and people with the environment in mind will never take their word for it to get the environment vote. To go NDP might be splitting the left vote.

 

[sitter_k]

Abandoned my RWD today




Then went to an AWD!

 

[egdeen]

been

Is it possible to sue the government in Small Claims Court? If possible, I would definitely try, just cost $100 bucks even the chances is slim (we don’t technically have a agreement with MOT).

Submit your EVHIP application even if you get your delivery after July 11. See what they say.

 

[Iggy663]

Abandoned my RWD today




Then went to an AWD!

I wanted to do the same and change my previous RWD order to AWD. Bu then Tesla increased the pricing and I just couldn't justify the extra $ increase. I guess I shouldn't have waited.

 

[Beeblebrox42]

The invoice is from the local dealer, so it's fine. Submit that.

All I have at this point is the "order confirmation"email from tesla....did you get a separate invoice for your charger?

 

[mknox]

The new battery tech is in the 3, so it’s price is lower.
The S and X do not have that tech, therefore their price is higher.

The cells used in the packs have changed numerous times since the car came out. Newer cell technology should be less expensive and even if it stayed the same, the cost of the Model S in particular has climbed quite a bit since 2012.

 

[felixculpas]

Well I mean, if you care about the environment which federal party are you going to vote for....From my point of view, you're stuck with the Liberals. I don't think anything the PC's will ever make any strong commitment and people with the environment in mind will never take their word for it to get the environment vote. To go NDP might be splitting the left vote.

Yes, realistically you probably are stuck with the federal Liberals but I don't mean that in a good way necessarily. Just "stuck".

Though scarily - Scheer’s Conservatives were the preferred choice of 37 per cent of decided and leaning voters that Ipsos polled at the end of June, while Trudeau’s Liberals had the support of 33 per cent and Singh’s NDP were the pick of 21 per cent.

The online poll of 1,002 eligible voters, provided exclusively to Global News, was conducted from June 27 to June 29.

There may be a rebound effect in Ontario for the federal Liberals though due to Ford's antics and that could swing things in favor of Trudeau. Immigration issues might hamper him though, esp in Quebec.

Trudeau is clearly not an environmentalist and seems more a puppet of big business but Catherine McKenna seems to be working very hard on what she can control. So if you imagine that she would like to introduce incentives but is being held back, then I guess I somewhat reluctantly vote Liberal instead of Green. If I came to appreciate that she wasn't a fan of incentives, I wouldn't vote liberal.

My biggest issue with the Liberals is that the more I read, the more I am opposed to the Kinder Morgan Pipeline. It's just bad timing if you believe in global warming not to mention just one spill near the gulf islands and the results would be devastating.That's on Trudeau. My vote wouldn't be for him but for the party in lieu of no better options. However if their environmental track record declines over the next year I might just vote green regardless of it being a wasted vote.

I voted strategically in the Ontario election - for the NDP - hoping for at least a minority to keep Ford at bay as I felt he'd be a complete CF and the Liberals self-imploded towards the end as we all know. Next time I'll probably vote Green regardless if that's a wasted vote or not.

Federally, I will be watching closely. I might find it hard to decide. I want to stop voting strategically which does not fare well for the liberals. They will have to earn my vote and I'll be largely swayed by environmental and fiscal management issues.

If by chance things are still bad in 4 years AND Ford is re-elected, I would strongly consider moving out of the province which would be a pretty dramatic change considering my heritage is Ontario for generations. If Ford AND Trump are re-elected, I'm thinking Norway if they keep extending their EV incentives Their goal: that all new cars, buses and light commercial vehicles in 2025 be zero emission. Sales of plug-in hybrids, all-electric cars and conventional hybrids achieved a market share of 51.4% of new car sales in Jan 2017.

 

[mknox]

They will have to earn my vote and I'll be largely swayed by environmental and fiscal management issues.

Elections are rarely about one issue and, it seems that they are often about electing out a leader or party as opposed to voting for something you actually want.

 

[wayner]

...If Ford AND Trump are re-elected, I'm thinking Norway if they keep extending their EV incentives Their goal: that all new cars, buses and light commercial vehicles in 2025 be zero emission. Sales of plug-in hybrids, all-electric cars and conventional hybrids achieved a market share of 51.4% of new car sales in Jan 2017.

All the while, Norway is exporting 1.4 Million barrels/day. More than a bit hypocritical.