Ontario EV Rebates Cancelled July 11, 2018

[mknox]

All the while, Norway is exporting 1.4 Million barrels/day. More than a bit hypocritical.

Exactly. Norway is like the drug dealer who is smart enough not to use his own product. Since the argument goes that oil in the ground needs to stay in the ground, I always thought that countries who extract it should be accountable for the corresponding damage that results. After all, it doesn't matter where in the world it gets burned.

 

[Vawlkus]

Elections are rarely about one issue and, it seems that they are often about electing out a leader or party as opposed to voting for something you actually want.

Or put another way: you’re not voting FOR someone, you’re voting AGAINST someone else.

That always irritates me.

 

[pcons]

So, I've been interested that in the last week or so this thread has significantly reduced in the number of posts per day. I'm wondering if that's because many people have given up and either cancelled their orders, or decided to go ahead, or is it that everything that could have been said has been said 10x over in the 188 pages of this thread so far?

Last thing I read was the ombudsman is still yet to get back to the people that have been talking to them. Any update there? I'm just curious....already had decided to go AWD well before the rebate was cancelled and knew I wasn't getting one. But I am interested in knowing how this whole thing plays out for the people still hoping for RWD and to take delivery.

On that note, how many people have taken delivery of an RWD on Ontario since the announcement was made? When I was at Tesla Oakville a few weeks back the sales guy said they were still planning to deliver about 4/day. I'm not sure its that many, but the day I was there they were prepping 2 MSM for pickup, and had about another 12 on the lot....

 

[NoBeard]

 

[KEvans]

I think a lot of us are just waiting to hear back from the Ombudsman, not to mention from our emails that we sent out, weeks ago, to the MTO and MFO. Ball's in their court now.

 

[T3l5aFan]

Ombudsman can’t and won’t do anything. It’s over. Always has been.

 

[felixculpas]

Elections are rarely about one issue and, it seems that they are often about electing out a leader or party as opposed to voting for something you actually want.

Unfortunately appears to be the case more often than not.

I think there's something to be said for voting for what you believe in though how one votes can be a very deep discussion in itself. Some people use proportional reasoning in their voting behavior while others latch on to a heated issue or two while others vote with pack mentality of unions for example. (not dissing unions)

Hopefully the discussions and news items over the EHVIP program ending have caused more people to stop, think and consider what's best for the environment overall. The media tends to play up the negative story lines but despite all the characterizations of the planet about to self combust, there are lots of positive stories out there - just not enough is being done and we're running out of time.

 

[felixculpas]

All the while, Norway is exporting 1.4 Million barrels/day. More than a bit hypocritical.

Yes, hypocritical for sure though lets not forget about Canada and our ~4M barrels/day and how we are extracting it.

Norway's 1.4M is down from 2014 when about 1.9M were produced and has been declining for the past 13 years as the North Sea oil fields decline. But they have lots of social problems being so oil dependent. I know someone who worked in their off shore oil industry. Insanely high wages. Not sure what they are now but I know many projects are dead given they require oil to be at $70-80/barrel.

Carbon emissions from our oil (bitumen) sands are 12% higher than from conventional oil extraction. 70% of world wide bitumen reserves are in Alberta. (28 billion cubic meters) Which of course widens the eyes of many a politician as a quick "fix".

When the Paris agreement was adopted in Dec 2015, Norway's sovereign wealth fund divested billions in fossil fuel holdings.

Anyway, that was more tongue in cheek than in reality as I don't speak Norwegian but I do like the landscape and the area in general despite their environmental issues.

Home - Carbon Tracker Initiative

 

[felixculpas]

Not sure if there are more recent numbers out there but this kinda summarizes things.

How much of the world's fossil fuel can we burn?

"If I had to run the numbers myself (as I did for the Guardian’s new interactive fossil fuel counters) I would start with the IPCC stat signed off last year by almost every government in the world: a carbon budget of 1,000 GT of CO2 from 2011 to give a 66% chance of staying under 2C. Subtract the roughly 150 GT we’ve already burned since then and that leaves about 850 GT for all sources of CO2."

"If we rapidly stopped deforestation and pushed down hard on the other drivers of global warming, we might be able to stretch our fossil fuel budget to 1,000 GT – which would let us burn around a third of proven reserves. Let deforestation and other warming agents run amok, however, while also aiming for better odds of staying below 2C, and we might have as little as 300 GT left for fossil fuels – which would be closer to a 10th of proven reserves."

 

[Pittfall]

My argument to nothing changing in terms of the rebate is that even if MTO says "alright, tesla is a registered dealer", all dealers had to submit what they had on their lot or any pending orders, prior to July 11, to MTO by July 16th. Did they do this? I doubt it.

 

[felixculpas]

In other words, it's over on all fronts and at every conceivable level one could argue.

Even if it wasn't, they (Ontario government) would just change the rules of engagement as required. I accept this, just that they've been rather short on a plan of action so as a province we've done a bit of a 180° turn environmentally and I'm really not comfortable with that.

Meanwhile, Nova Scotia introduced a $10k incentive for solar installs today, just like what was about to happen in Ontario but never got off the ground when GreenON was killed.

The 5 Most Important Things You Can Do for the Environment

 

[KEvans]

Ombudsman can’t and won’t do anything. It’s over. Always has been.

You're probably right. However, the most likely scenario in which the Ombudsman is unable to do something is if it was a cabinet level decision. So, why hasn't that been communicated to the Ombudsman? If that was the case, then they'd have to notify us and close their investigation. That they haven't done that means it's not quite over yet.

 

[Pittfall]

You're probably right. However, the most likely scenario in which the Ombudsman is unable to do something is if it was a cabinet level decision. So, why hasn't that been communicated to the Ombudsman? If that was the case, then they'd have to notify us and close their investigation. That they haven't done that means it's not quite over yet.

You have been very optimistic all along but trust me when I say, you and I and other people on this forum are more informed than Ombudsman. I've fed them information multiple times that I thought they would know already. They aren't really doing much other than listening to people and communicating it to MTO. They may have some influence but like I mentioned earlier, did Tesla even send our pending orders to MTO before July 16th? Will they even entertain anything now that Tesla has offered us all refunds even if your vehicle has arrived at dealership? There was even a post with a reply from an MPP that said minister said nothing will change. Every day, the people that care decrease in numbers because they kept their vehicles despite not getting the rebate or cancelled. I don't disagree with you that it's not quite over but I feel your optimism is a little high. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[MountainPass]

This is so disappointing for us Ontarians. We got our Model 3 in time, but so many didn't. One of my employees recently bought a house and completely missed out on all the rebates for windows, solar and thermostats.

Never give up! Never Surrender!

 

[felixculpas]

I had mentioned that Nova Scotia announced yesterday a solar incentive.

In taking a closer look I see:

The federal funding will exist up until March 2022, and the current budget will allow for roughly 2,000 homes to participate.

This solar program is funded by the Government of Canada’s $56 million-dollar commitment to Nova Scotia from the Low Carbon Economy Leadership Fund. Efficiency Nova Scotia is administering the program for the province.

Now what are the odds the feds can play nicely with Ford to introduce something similar? OK. I'll go out on a limb and guess ZERO.

I can see this having more legs than EV incentives as a lot of businesses have been affected by the no-show of the proposed Ontario solar incentives.

The NS plan isn't quite as good as it's capped at 40% of your system costs before HST so most would probably be looking at around $7k rebate.

Another price we'll pay for fighting with the feds.

 

[Ludatik]

Received the email below from EVIP / MTO:

Thank you for your email to the Honourable John Yakabuski, Minister of Transportation, regarding the Electric and Hydrogen Vehicle Incentive Program (EHVIP). We are pleased to reply on his behalf.

As EHVIP was funded through the cap and trade program which has been cancelled, this program is being wound down.

An application from a consumer or a dealership will be considered for an EHVIP incentive if it meets all applicable program requirements, is submitted within 90 days of vehicle registration and plating, and one of the following conditions has been met:

· the eligible vehicle has been delivered to the consumer, registered, and plated on or before July 11.

· the eligible vehicle, if part of an independently owned franchised dealership’s inventory on the dealership’s lot in Ontario or an order made by an independently owned franchised dealership with a manufacturer on or before July 11, if the vehicle is delivered to the consumer, registered, and plated on or before September 10, 2018. For greater clarity, the September 10 deadline does not apply to vehicles from Tesla and other non-independently-owned franchised dealerships.

Please note that only vehicle models on the current list of eligible vehicles for the EHVIP will be eligible for incentives.

Regards,

EHVIP Team

Nothing unexpected but the clarity is nice. Means a rebate application would be denied.

 

[Burlburt]

Received the email below from EVIP / MTO:

Thank you for your email to the Honourable John Yakabuski, Minister of Transportation, regarding the Electric and Hydrogen Vehicle Incentive Program (EHVIP). We are pleased to reply on his behalf.

As EHVIP was funded through the cap and trade program which has been cancelled, this program is being wound down.

An application from a consumer or a dealership will be considered for an EHVIP incentive if it meets all applicable program requirements, is submitted within 90 days of vehicle registration and plating, and one of the following conditions has been met:

· the eligible vehicle has been delivered to the consumer, registered, and plated on or before July 11.

· the eligible vehicle, if part of an independently owned franchised dealership’s inventory on the dealership’s lot in Ontario or an order made by an independently owned franchised dealership with a manufacturer on or before July 11, if the vehicle is delivered to the consumer, registered, and plated on or before September 10, 2018. For greater clarity, the September 10 deadline does not apply to vehicles from Tesla and other non-independently-owned franchised dealerships.

Please note that only vehicle models on the current list of eligible vehicles for the EHVIP will be eligible for incentives.

Regards,

EHVIP Team

Nothing unexpected but the clarity is nice. Means a rebate application would be denied.

Got it too. I told them I already received their form letter and I look forward to intervention by the Ombudsman of Ontario. Won't go anywhere but may disrupt their ability to sleep.

 

[Buggle]

Got it too. I told them I already received their form letter and I look forward to intervention by the Ombudsman of Ontario. Won't go anywhere but may disrupt their ability to sleep.

What are you talking about lol? They're bureaucrats, they have no stress or responsibility.

 

[KEvans]

You have been very optimistic all along but trust me when I say, you and I and other people on this forum are more informed than Ombudsman. I've fed them information multiple times that I thought they would know already. They aren't really doing much other than listening to people and communicating it to MTO. They may have some influence but like I mentioned earlier, did Tesla even send our pending orders to MTO before July 16th? Will they even entertain anything now that Tesla has offered us all refunds even if your vehicle has arrived at dealership? There was even a post with a reply from an MPP that said minister said nothing will change. Every day, the people that care decrease in numbers because they kept their vehicles despite not getting the rebate or cancelled. I don't disagree with you that it's not quite over but I feel your optimism is a little high. Hope I'm wrong.

"Very optimistic all along" lol. I don't think we're getting a rebate, but I'm intelligent enough to know that I don't know that much. Meaning, everything's just a guess. Until we hear from the three ongoing sources that I know of that all options are exhausted, I'm going to continue under the assumption that, because people who do know more than me are still trying, then there is still a very slight chance. Of course, since "very slight chance" likely still equates to no reversals, you'll likely be right in the end.

EDITED to remove some of the snarkiness. We're all in the same boat here, I don't want to come off as argumentative.

 

[Switzch]

For greater clarity, the September 10 deadline does not apply to vehicles from Tesla and other non-independently-owned franchised dealerships.

At least they are explicitly calling out Tesla. It's amazing they can keep changing the goal posts as this develops. What a joke these guys are.