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P3D+ 250 mile range with non-aggressive driving

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Good call out. Yes I take full advantage of regen. I use virtually zero breaking. Those big beautiful breaks just sit there lookin pretty.
For maximum efficiency, you would want to let the car coast or pick speed up on downhills to minimize power usage on the following flat or uphill section. But you have to deal with trafic and speed limits. May not be worth it.
 
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Part of my drive home is up a hill for about a mile with the speed limit being 40mph. It's a pretty steep hill which AP can navigate. When AP is in control, it consumes on average 10 miles of range. When I drive up the hill without AP, I'm getting 7-8 miles of range used.

Now this isn't highway driving and it's not for a long drive, but it begins to show how AP wastes some of that energy trying to keep at a 40mph speed. On steeper portions of the drive in AP, I can see the energy bar shoot up to about 3/4. Yet, when I drive that section, I don't push the car to stay at 40mph and the energy bar never reaches half way.
It sounds like you drive slower than AP. Set AP to the same average speed that you drive and see how well it does.
 
Just to go back to @khraiv's original point... The data he saw is exactly aligned with what @Troy published based on the EPA data aligned to just highway driving and not a mix:

Tesla Model S/X/3 range at 65/70/75/80 mph

Looking at that chart, a P3D on 20" wheels doing between 70-75 mph would be expected to have a range of 240-260 miles, which is exactly what @khraiv saw. That car would be expected to have about 25 miles of additional range for every 5 mph reduction of speed (at least down to 55 mph per the chart).


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I'd like to believe this, but I don't due to anecdotal reasons. It's saying my car has the same range as a topped out P3D? Even though the P3D has much more efficient PMAC rear motor? Even though it has both a total lower drag coefficient, as well as a lower total drag area. Even though it weighs 1000lbs less? Even though when I test drove it, the Wh/mi reported was spectacular compared to my car?

I just don't believe it. It doesn't add up.
 
I'd like to believe this, but I don't due to anecdotal reasons. It's saying my car has the same range as a topped out P3D? Even though the P3D has much more efficient PMAC rear motor? Even though it has both a total lower drag coefficient, as well as a lower total drag area. Even though it weighs 1000lbs less? Even though when I test drove it, the Wh/mi reported was spectacular compared to my car?

I just don't believe it. It doesn't add up.

How much better do your expect the P3D to be? Your car has 20% more battery capacity as well, so the P3D has to be much more efficient to yield roughly the same range.
 
How much better do your expect the P3D to be? Your car has 20% more battery capacity as well, so the P3D has to be much more efficient to yield roughly the same range.
Nope. it has ~80kWh usable now, about probably about 83 when new. I believe Model 3 LR is over 75kWh usable.

My rated mile is 310Wh
I expect Model 3 rated mile to be 230Wh. So almost 35% more efficient.
 
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Just to go back to @khraiv's original point... The data he saw is exactly aligned with what @Troy published based on the EPA data aligned to just highway driving and not a mix:

Tesla Model S/X/3 range at 65/70/75/80 mph

Looking at that chart, a P3D on 20" wheels doing between 70-75 mph would be expected to have a range of 240-260 miles, which is exactly what @khraiv saw. That car would be expected to have about 25 miles of additional range for every 5 mph reduction of speed (at least down to 55 mph per the chart).


View attachment 330096
That chart shows an 8% difference with the RWD cars. Someone recently posted a side by side comparison tripthread with a RWD car (same tires) and found a 4% difference. In any case, it looks like the 20’ rims and tires make a bigger difference.
 
There are times on autopilot where you will be behind a car going below the speed limit then that lead car will give way. AP will then quickly accelerate to the set speed which will hurt your range efficiency.

Furthermore - and this is not so much an AP issue but a cruise control issue - the car is dutifully trying to maintain the set speed no matter what. If you are driving on rolling hills the car is going to expend potentially extra energy to maintain that set speed while a human driver can make decisions to trade off other factors.

I can believe that AP also reduces efficiency too just because of the way it steers. It is working hard to keep you in a particular part of the lane and likely asks for more steering adjustments than a human drive would who is not quite as uptight necessarily about these things. I have no idea how much this difference really is and whether it actually makes a big difference on the long haul. It also likely depends on your driving style too.

I'm really surprised that the P3D+ gets worse highway efficiency than my S75D with 19" wheels that weighs about 600 pounds more. It appears the combo of the larger wheels and the stickier tires more than offsets the better efficiency of the Model 3 powertrain. In warmer weather even with AC on driving at ~75 mph I am typically getting 260-270 Wh/mi.
 
Furthermore - and this is not so much an AP issue but a cruise control issue - the car is dutifully trying to maintain the set speed no matter what. If you are driving on rolling hills the car is going to expend potentially extra energy to maintain that set speed while a human driver can make decisions to trade off other factors.
Maintaining set speed is the most efficient thing to do, versus slowing down and speeding up. Most people pick up this myth because when the hear that their engine is "working hard" they think it must be less efficient, when in fact for ICE engines the OPPOSITE is true, up to a certain limit. I would bet this is still true for an electric motor, you want to stay in the highest efficiency island on a 2-dimensional motor efficiency graph as possible.
 
Maintaining set speed is the most efficient thing to do, versus slowing down and speeding up. Most people pick up this myth because when the hear that their engine is "working hard" they think it must be less efficient, when in fact for ICE engines the OPPOSITE is true, up to a certain limit. I would bet this is still true for an electric motor, you want to stay in the highest efficiency island on a 2-dimensions motor efficiency graph as possible.

On level ground with no traffic around you it is likely more efficient but not on rolling hills where you can use less power to artificially keep your climbing speed constant. Regen helps somewhat but is not 100% efficient.

Many places people drive aren't flat ground and/or have zero traffic. Add in those factors and cruise control isn't necessarily more efficient. The car is going to expend energy to maintain a speed even if it might not necessarily be the best idea for conditions. It won't allow the car to coast as fast going downhill and it will try to keep the car at speed going uphill. That's not always the best approach.
 
You also have to consider the Arizona heat! That is a big Battery drain along with speed ! Try and stay around 65-70 mph. Should expect better results

The Model 3 may have different characteristics but my experience is that the heat does not dramatically impact the efficiency of my Model S. In fact the efficiency goes up despite AC usage as it gets hotter at least up to 100 degrees. Where I live I don't have enough data to comment above that. Without climate control usage I bet that the efficiency would get better and better with heat because the air is less dense and aerodynamics are a major factor in efficiency on Teslas. It wouldn't surprise me if the AC energy "cost" does become more and more of a factor going above 100 degrees than the "benefit" of lesser air density but I don't have data to demonstrate that personally. I still bet that it would be more efficient than some cooler temps.

Can someone who uses TeslaFi and has a Mode 3 in a hot climate share their temp efficiency table? It would be interesting to see.
 
Maintaining set speed is the most efficient thing to do, versus slowing down and speeding up. Most people pick up this myth because when the hear that their engine is "working hard" they think it must be less efficient, when in fact for ICE engines the OPPOSITE is true, up to a certain limit. I would bet this is still true for an electric motor, you want to stay in the highest efficiency island on a 2-dimensional motor efficiency graph as possible.

No, nothing to do with “thinking the engine is working hard”. If you’re willing to give up a little speed getting over a hill by not increasing the amount of energy you put in to maintain a constant speed, then you’ll use less energy to get over the hill. Just a bit of hypermiling. Easy to feel it when riding a bike and easy to see if you’re looking at a readout of energy expenditure. Cruise control maintaining a set speed completely ignores this opportunity to use a little less energy.
 
On level ground with no traffic around you it is likely more efficient but not on rolling hills where you can use less power to artificially keep your climbing speed constant. Regen helps somewhat but is not 100% efficient.

Many places people drive aren't flat ground and/or have zero traffic. Add in those factors and cruise control isn't necessarily more efficient. The car is going to expend energy to maintain a speed even if it might not necessarily be the best idea for conditions. It won't allow the car to coast as fast going downhill and it will try to keep the car at speed going uphill. That's not always the best approach.
Sure if you slow down going uphill it will be more efficient. It would also be more efficient to drive slow downhill. However it will take longer to reach your destination! It is optimal to go a constant speed to minimize loss. Unless you're using regen on the downhills, then it's better to go a little faster downhill since the regen has loss.
 
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On level ground with no traffic around you it is likely more efficient but not on rolling hills where you can use less power to artificially keep your climbing speed constant. Regen helps somewhat but is not 100% efficient.

Many places people drive aren't flat ground and/or have zero traffic. Add in those factors and cruise control isn't necessarily more efficient. The car is going to expend energy to maintain a speed even if it might not necessarily be the best idea for conditions. It won't allow the car to coast as fast going downhill and it will try to keep the car at speed going uphill. That's not always the best approach.
No, my point is explicitly about hills, not flat ground. Human intuitions simply aren't good at this, sorry. Take for example "allowing the car to coast downhill" - another bad intuition. So you're going to take increasing aero drag power that goes up with the cube of velocity, versus taking that energy pack into the pack? Sure there's an efficiency factor there and a non-trivially calculated break-even spot, but you're not figuring that out.
 
No, nothing to do with “thinking the engine is working hard”. If you’re willing to give up a little speed getting over a hill by not increasing the amount of energy you put in to maintain a constant speed, then you’ll use less energy to get over the hill. Just a bit of hypermiling. Easy to feel it when riding a bike and easy to see if you’re looking at a readout of energy expenditure. Cruise control maintaining a set speed completely ignores this opportunity to use a little less energy.

Look at it from a physics perspective. It requires additional power to go up hill, because you're converting battery energy into gravitational potential energy. It's not being destroyed.
 
Look at it from a physics perspective. It requires additional power to go up hill, because you're converting battery energy into gravitational potential energy. It's not being destroyed.
Physics says it takes the same amount of energy to climb the hill whether you do it slowly or quickly.
Physics also says that aerodynamic drag goes up with the square of speed. Therefore a constant speed is the way to minimize aerodynamic drag.
 
You will when a shorter range means 2-3 more stops to charge and wife nags you about how stupid it is, and that if we only owned a gas car, we wouldn't be taking so long to get to our destination. lol
The faster you drive the faster you get there. While you might need to stop more often, you will spend less time charging because you will be charging at a higher rate due to a lower state of charge.
 
Sure if you slow down going uphill it will be more efficient. It would also be more efficient to drive slow downhill. However it will take longer to reach your destination! It is optimal to go a constant speed to minimize loss. Unless you're using regen on the downhills, then it's better to go a little faster downhill since the regen has loss.
That works pretty well, but if I do not have CC on I just coast as I approach the crest of a hill so that I start the downhill at a slower speed. You would be hard pressed to notice a difference in travel time, I avoid regen, and I don't pick up so so much extra speed on the downhill portion that I'm going *too* fast or incur substantial extra Aero related losses.
 
Physics says it takes the same amount of energy to climb the hill whether you do it slowly or quickly.
Physics also says that aerodynamic drag goes up with the square of speed. Therefore a constant speed is the way to minimize aerodynamic drag.
Same energy different power. Yes I agree. I think people trying that "hyper-mile" by feel are at most just inadvertently going slower, losing aero losses on the way up and then starting slow at the top again. Might as well just go slower 100% of the time, perhaps saving even more energy.

edit - but you didn't put a unit for drag. Energy or power, it matters. Power is cubed.
 
I fully expect that I will never hit 310 mile range under any real-world circumstance, I just want Tesla to be honest and favor proper estimates over inflating marketing numbers.

All companies that sell vehicles in the US have to be certified by the EPA. Tesla isn't over-inflating numbers, they're relying on a system (as is everyone else) that can't cover all real world driving conditions.

Take it up with the EPA.