Phantom braking (TACC/AP) [Not AEB]

[adsheff]

I really feel like phantom braking has mostly stopped ocurring now. Have done a few long drives without a single incident recently. There were even a few occasions where I thought it would do it and it didn't. Maybe they've turned a corner...

 

[Krisey]

I've now had the car for a whole 6 days and driven a total of 230 miles and I have to say that I'm really disappointed with TACC & Autosteer - they BOTH suck! I was looking forward to my new 'mobile laptop', full of computing power that should be super smart in helping me sail down the motorway, but alas, TACC has slammed the brakes on for no apparent reason 4 times already (to the point that the wife doesn't want me to use it). And its REALLY annoying that auto steer disengages when you indicate to change lane and you have to re-engange it after you've changed lane. The bings and bongs are already driving me mad, even with them turned off for TACC you get them for Autosteer.

In my Merc C63 with driving assistance package (essentially TACC & Autosteer) it was MUCH smarter. You seamlessly sailed down the motorway, if you came up to traffic it would gently start to slow, until you indicated to change lanes then it would maintain the original speed and allow you to get much closer to the car in front, it then automatically disengaged autosteer until you've completed the lane change, then automatically re-engaged it and along you went. No human intervention required, no bings and bongs, and no phantom braking. If it can be done so easily on a 'traditional' car in 2017, why is my fancy Tesla seemingly so bad at it!?!?

It's the one thing that's ruining an otherwise great car for me...

EDIT: I also test drove a VW ID.3 before buying the Tesla and was impressed the TACC changed speed depending on the speed limit... my Tesla does not?

 

[Artiste]

I really feel like phantom braking has mostly stopped ocurring now. Have done a few long drives without a single incident recently. There were even a few occasions where I thought it would do it and it didn't. Maybe they've turned a corner...

My experience is the opposite of yours. I’ve driven 900 miles of mostly motorway in the last four days. I stopped using TACC/Autopilot 18 months ago because it was not just unreliable but downright dangerous. This trip gave me a chance to re-evaluate it after several software updates.

The result? Absolute crap. I experienced at least one episode of phantom braking an hour, some of which were full on emergency braking. Some occurred when the nearest vehicle was hundreds of yards away, there wasn’t a bridge in sight, and not even a rabbit running across the road.

How has TACC/ Autopilot or even FSD developed in the more than two years I’ve owned the car? Simple answer is not at all. Other car makers have almost flawless versions of adaptive cruise control but Tesla haven’t got a clue. They can’t even give us windscreen wipers that work properly, something you’d expect on a cheap and nasty second hand hatch.

Of course the new beta software is going to solve everything. How often have we heard that? The Tesla dream of autonomous driving is going nowhere for many years to come. It’s embarrassing, but the Musk feels no shame. He’ll continue to feed us with empty promises which the gullible (and there are a lot of those) will swallow without question.

 

[Hurricane]

My experience is the opposite of yours. I’ve driven 900 miles of mostly motorway in the last four days. I stopped using TACC/Autopilot 18 months ago because it was not just unreliable but downright dangerous. This trip gave me a chance to re-evaluate it after several software updates.

The result? Absolute crap. I experienced at least one episode of phantom braking an hour, some of which were full on emergency braking. Some occurred when the nearest vehicle was hundreds of yards away, there wasn’t a bridge in sight, and not even a rabbit running across the road.

How has TACC/ Autopilot or even FSD developed in the more than two years I’ve owned the car? Simple answer is not at all. Other car makers have almost flawless versions of adaptive cruise control but Tesla haven’t got a clue. They can’t even give us windscreen wipers that work properly, something you’d expect on a cheap and nasty second hand hatch.

Of course the new beta software is going to solve everything. How often have we heard that? The Tesla dream of autonomous driving is going nowhere for many years to come. It’s embarrassing, but the Musk feels no shame. He’ll continue to feed us with empty promises which the gullible (and there are a lot of those) will swallow without question.

My experience is exactly the same. Phantom braking is every bit as bad now at it was two years ago and Tesla seem incapable of fixing it. Perhaps not surprising from a company that can’t even give us decent windscreen wipers and auto headlights.

FSD was a huge waste of money. I was sucked in by Musk’s promises of rapid development but it turns out he’s full of crap. Autonomous driving is, for now, pretty much dead in the water, at least in this country.

 

[Type2]

FSD was a huge waste of money. I was sucked in by Musk’s promises of rapid development but it turns out he’s full of crap. Autonomous driving is, for now, pretty much dead in the water, at least in this country.

I’ve had my M3 for well over two years and will be changing it after three. I paid for FSD and am left wondering what I’ve got for my investment. Very little that I can see.

 

[Spacerock]

My experience is exactly the same. Phantom braking is every bit as bad now at it was two years ago and Tesla seem incapable of fixing it. Perhaps not surprising from a company that can’t even give us decent windscreen wipers and auto headlights.

FSD was a huge waste of money. I was sucked in by Musk’s promises of rapid development but it turns out he’s full of crap. Autonomous driving is, for now, pretty much dead in the water, at least in this country.

Same here, to me this car became a headache every time I had to drive somewhere. Everything from the wipers to the phantom braking just made it very hard to enjoy the car so I finally sold and changed it to another brand. Now I'm excited every time the wipers turn on and when cruise control just works - Not sure why its so hard for Tesla to make these work

 

[Yachtsman]

I’ve been reading posts about phantom braking since before I picked up my car 15 months ago & there’s a mixed bag of opinions. There is a percentage me included who have never or only rarely experienced a phantom brake event. I’m my 15 months and 12k miles I’ve experienced two, one highly justified & the other debatable, possibly over cautious and a few hesitations, not braking events.
To all intents we are all driving the same vehicle with the same software so why such differing experiences.
The obvious variable is the driver so is the different driving styles what cause these different effects. I can’t see any other reason for it. I’m not suggesting that some are bad or even mad drivers but somehow different.
I drive totally different than my 40 year old son in law, he’s not bad or dangerous just different & he makes different choices & decisions, so I wonder if he would experience regular phantom braking.

Edit: I can’t agree with the comments that other brands have a equivalent system that always works perfectly, I’ve driven some & they don’t, but they do act differently.

 

[Artiste]

I’ve been reading posts about phantom braking since before I picked up my car 15 months ago & there’s a mixed bag of opinions. There is a percentage me included who have never or only rarely experienced a phantom brake event. I’m my 15 months and 12k miles I’ve experienced two, one highly justified & the other debatable, possibly over cautious and a few hesitations, not braking events.
To all intents we are all driving the same vehicle with the same software so why such differing experiences.
The obvious variable is the driver so is the different driving styles what cause these different effects. I can’t see any other reason for it. I’m not suggesting that some are bad or even mad drivers but somehow different.
I drive totally different than my 40 year old son in law, he’s not bad or dangerous just different & he makes different choices & decisions, so I wonder if he would experience regular phantom braking.

Edit: I can’t agree with the comments that other brands have a equivalent system that always works perfectly, I’ve driven some & they don’t, but they do act differently.

I don’t see how that can be the case because on autopilot the car is pretty much driving itself. All the driver has to do is keep a bit of pressure on the steering wheel. The car makes all the decisions.

 

[SalisburySam]

Seriously, my wife won't let me run in AP mode when she is in the car. The phantom braking scares her.
Keep in mind she's no stranger to Automatic Emergency Braking or AutoSteering systems. For me it's just a matter of embarrassment. I cover the throttle when other cars are around. Sort of defeats the purpose of TACC.

Yes I said throttle. Sometimes I want to throttle it.

...and therefore the purchase of the rest of the EAP/FSD stuff, unfortunately. Still want option for dumb cruise control.

 

[SalisburySam]

Tesla are so ignorant there is barely anyway to report problems and feedback is probably never received so its difficult to know where and when things will happen.

The ability to roll back updates is needed

No sure rolling back will help much. My Model 3 has exhibited phantom braking since birth 3-½ years ago and throughout 84 software updates. Still does. What has changed: I rarely use TACC and never with car occupants in addition to me. Therefore, my purchases of EAP and FSD were pretty useless.

 

[MrBadger]

I don’t see how that can be the case because on autopilot the car is pretty much driving itself. All the driver has to do is keep a bit of pressure on the steering wheel. The car makes all the decisions.

Lots of variables and parameters. Also, many people expect it to just work. IMHO, it is a learning experience even if on paper all you do is hold the wheel.

Where and when (many reports of poor experiences when vehicle was being used outside the designed operational domain), different perceptions of what phantom braking is, climate conditions, sensor condition, closeness car is used in relation to other vehicles (something you learn over time), parameters such as follow distance and forward collision avoidance, firmware version and features etc etc. So lots of driver decisions still needing to be made.

My wife doesn't use TACC because of poor experience unless I am in the car. She never uses auto steer [she likes to be in control of the car hence why she has never pushed herself to master TACC] because when she first tried it she had problems with braking. Exactly the same car, exactly the same roads, and probably pretty much exact same driving conditions that I have used the car in, but her experiences do not reflect my experiences.

 

[SalisburySam]

...she has never pushed herself to master TACC...

I would argue cruise control should not be so complex or irrational (phantom braking) that it has to be "mastered." That's one of the reasons (a) I rarely use it anymore and (b) I still advocate for a dumb version of cruise control from Tesla. Yeah, I know, ain't gonna happen.

 

[Yachtsman]

Lots of variables and parameters. Also, many people expect it to just work. IMHO, it is a learning experience even if on paper all you do is hold the wheel.

Where and when (many reports of poor experiences when vehicle was being used outside the designed operational domain), different perceptions of what phantom braking is, climate conditions, sensor condition, closeness car is used in relation to other vehicles (something you learn over time), parameters such as follow distance and forward collision avoidance, firmware version and features etc etc. So lots of driver decisions still needing to be made.

My wife doesn't use TACC because of poor experience unless I am in the car. She never uses auto steer [she likes to be in control of the car hence why she has never pushed herself to master TACC] because when she first tried it she had problems with braking. Exactly the same car, exactly the same roads, and probably pretty much exact same driving conditions that I have used the car in, but her experiences do not reflect my experiences.

Exactly

 

[Type2]

Edit: I can’t agree with the comments that other brands have a equivalent system that always works perfectly, I’ve driven some & they don’t, but they do act differently.

Obviously I can’t comment on all brands, but in driving more than 40k miles in my A6 I’ve never experienced a single episode of phantom braking while using adaptive cruise control. It just works - flawlessly. Add to that the superb matrix headlights and the completely reliable windscreen wipers and you see just how far behind Tesla is. And they think they’re going to master autonomy anytime soon? Not a chance.

 

[Artiste]

Lots of variables and parameters. Also, many people expect it to just work. IMHO, it is a learning experience even if on paper all you do is hold the wheel.

Where and when (many reports of poor experiences when vehicle was being used outside the designed operational domain), different perceptions of what phantom braking is, climate conditions, sensor condition, closeness car is used in relation to other vehicles (something you learn over time), parameters such as follow distance and forward collision avoidance, firmware version and features etc etc. So lots of driver decisions still needing to be made.

My wife doesn't use TACC because of poor experience unless I am in the car. She never uses auto steer [she likes to be in control of the car hence why she has never pushed herself to master TACC] because when she first tried it she had problems with braking. Exactly the same car, exactly the same roads, and probably pretty much exact same driving conditions that I have used the car in, but her experiences do not reflect my experiences.

I’m not sure I follow your argument here. Yes, there are lots of variables and parameters but these are not down to driver input. I totally agree that these variables will lead to different experiences of phantom braking but I don’t see how that equates to different driving styles. While using autopilot the driver basically has no input so I don’t see why different driving styles would affect the incidence of phantom braking. As an example, the car not the driver decides how close to a lorry it will drive on a motorway, and the erroneous perception that the lorry is leaving its lane and thus causing phantom braking is again down to the car, not the driver. Driving style on autopilot seems to me to be completely irrelevant because it’s all decided by the car.

 

[init6]

There are still a lot of driver variables even when on autopilot, e.g. how close you are to the vehicle in front, speed, type of road, etc. I agree that it limits some of the variables, but not all of them.

 

[Artiste]

There are still a lot of driver variables even when on autopilot, e.g. how close you are to the vehicle in front, speed, type of road, etc. I agree that it limits some of the variables, but not all of them.

True, but that doesn’t alter the fact that TACC/Atopilot just doesn’t work as intended. It’s complete crap.

 

[init6]

True, but that doesn’t alter the fact that TACC/Atopilot just doesn’t work as intended. It’s complete crap.

If you read this forum long enough, you'll see that different people have different experiences of these issues. In just over a year of ownership (happy birthday Tonto!) I've had maybe half a dozen phantom braking incidents. Mostly at a junction near Stirling. So my experience is quite different to yours.

I appreciate that people buy cars for different reasons, but when I was considering my Tesla, TACC and Wipers were simply not on my list. I once had an Audi A5 that had no cruise control whatsoever, so the Tesla is infinitely better in that regard. I also find the wipers much, much better than the ones on my previous BMW. It simply couldn't cope with the smirr (light rain) we frequently get in the West.

By all means list the cars that do TACC and autowipers better that the Tesla, but as a whole package are they better? This of course is a subjective question. YMMV as folks are apt to say.

 

[Artiste]

If you read this forum long enough, you'll see that different people have different experiences of these issues. In just over a year of ownership (happy birthday Tonto!) I've had maybe half a dozen phantom braking incidents. Mostly at a junction near Stirling. So my experience is quite different to yours.

I appreciate that people buy cars for different reasons, but when I was considering my Tesla, TACC and Wipers were simply not on my list. I once had an Audi A5 that had no cruise control whatsoever, so the Tesla is infinitely better in that regard. I also find the wipers much, much better than the ones on my previous BMW. It simply couldn't cope with the smirr (light rain) we frequently get in the West.

By all means list the cars that do TACC and autowipers better that the Tesla, but as a whole package are they better? This of course is a subjective question. YMMV as folks are apt to say.

I’ve been reading this forum for close on three years so am very familiar with the fact that people have different experiences. It’s one of the conundrums that makes reading the forum so interesting.

Whether the whole package is better is indeed subjective, and for me the answer is a definite no. It’s not just phantom braking, crap lights and crap wipers, there’s also the fact that the front seats are not nearly supportive enough for a car of this performance and the car is way too noisy and unrefined at motorway speeds for something in this price range. I like a minimalist interior but I’ve fallen out of love with the overly spartan interior of the M3. I want a decent binnacle display, a HUD, and acres of real dead animal rather than this cheap looking vegan “leather” that looks and feels like no leather I’ve ever seen.

I don’t for one moment regret buying a Tesla, but for me it is too much of a compromise and I’ll be buying something else next time round. Perhaps I’ll return to Tesla when they finally master FSD - in 2036

 

[jimbo_hippo]

I’ve been reading this forum for close on three years so am very familiar with the fact that people have different experiences. It’s one of the conundrums that makes reading the forum so interesting.

Whether the whole package is better is indeed subjective, and for me the answer is a definite no. It’s not just phantom braking, crap lights and crap wipers, there’s also the fact that the front seats are not nearly supportive enough for a car of this performance and the car is way too noisy and unrefined at motorway speeds for something in this price range. I like a minimalist interior but I’ve fallen out of love with the overly spartan interior of the M3. I want a decent binnacle display, a HUD, and acres of real dead animal rather than this cheap looking vegan “leather” that looks and feels like no leather I’ve ever seen.

I don’t for one moment regret buying a Tesla, but for me it is too much of a compromise and I’ll be buying something else next time round. Perhaps I’ll return to Tesla when they finally master FSD - in 2036

I think people forget that this side of Rimac or Lucid (neither of which are in ‘that price category’) Tesla are still the only manufacturer supplying the UK that make nothing but electric cars. we still have no idea how much other manufacturers subsidise their products. For me to say that the seats are fine and wipers and lights an etc etc are fine would just be anecdotal. But it’s still the case that Tesla pressed the reset button on the car industry and a lot of them are still struggling with getting past BIOS. There are some cracking competitors now and some deffo give the Big T a run for its money but until anyone else makes only EVs, what is a good car for the price or what is value for money is still really an unknown.

[other opinions are available]