Plaid 21” rear tire woes - factory defect?

[AAKEE]

Looks like a toe issue

Yep.

My 23 Plaid was around n good way to kill the rear tyres a while after delivery.

I did a wheel alignment with on numbers specified (n2itives). No mod, so stock high negative camber. But the toe is set to 0.15 degree per side, 0.30 total.
The stock 21” has not gotten worse, and from the alignment the surface temp on the wheels are about the same, only slightly warmer inside. Before they was a lot warmer (car hade toe put from factory in ”low”
My other 20” low rolling resistance setup wears perfect so far. Only around 1 K miles yet, but they really wear even.

 

[cptnslo]

We are contemplating replacing the wife's 2019 eTron with something else and one of the vehicles on our radar due to their lease deals is the Rivian R1S. Motor Trend has an interesting article about Rivian owners wearing out tires in as little as 6k miles and flagged the below issue as the likely cause. Wondering if driving in the lowest mode is causing the same issue with the MSP?

I mean this just logically makes sense and is how suspension works lol the fact motortrend needed to write an article about how a tire moves when a car is lowered is kind of sad

 

[Sam1]

No one has ever been able to get 40k miles out of any 21" tire on a Model S with factory suspension, ever.

Here is are my Continental ExtremeContact DWS06+ after 12k miles.

It's not the tire, it's the lack of ability to adjust the Camber without aftermarket parts.

View attachment 1054370

Dang it, now @TSLA Pilot has to figure out how Michelin produced these tires for continental...

 

[Bull]

Dang it, now @TSLA Pilot has to figure out how Michelin produced these tires for continental...

You didn't know that the 21" ExtremeContact DWS06+ was subcontracted to Michelin?

 

[dev_lvl80]

Why did you throw the shims away? Did it not correct the issue?

Sorry, missed this. Hope not too late

So, shims has fixed widht. For both L+R, whereas factory degree between L+R is not the same. So adding shims to unequals angles, just skew them, like one will be at desired state - second not. This is actually my case.
Second though which drive decision, $250 for two metal plates - rip off. I'd pay 4x times but I'll get product properly designed, flexible/configurable for piece of mind. When I'll sell car, it won''t be headache.
Another point, driving in low - I can readjust arms. Shims fixed, so no and no.

Last things, install adjustable arms is so easy, shims - it's real pain in ass.

IMO.

So, now I'm 8k miles on adjusted arms. No sign of inner wear at all. Very unhappy I did not do it from first day.

 

[Bull]

Sorry, missed this. Hope not too late

So, shims has fixed widht. For both L+R, whereas factory degree between L+R is not the same. So adding shims to unequals angles, just skew them, like one will be at desired state - second not. This is actually my case.
Second though which drive decision, $250 for two metal plates - rip off. I'd pay 4x times but I'll get product properly designed, flexible/configurable for piece of mind. When I'll sell car, it won''t be headache.
Another point, driving in low - I can readjust arms. Shims fixed, so no and no.

Last things, install adjustable arms is so easy, shims - it's real pain in ass.

IMO.

So, now I'm 8k miles on adjusted arms. No sign of inner wear at all. Very unhappy I did not do it from first day.

What settings did you end up with that are working so well for you? I have adjustable arms too but still getting the dreaded inner edge wear.

 

[AMPd]

Sorry, missed this. Hope not too late

So, shims has fixed widht. For both L+R, whereas factory degree between L+R is not the same. So adding shims to unequals angles, just skew them, like one will be at desired state - second not. This is actually my case.
Second though which drive decision, $250 for two metal plates - rip off. I'd pay 4x times but I'll get product properly designed, flexible/configurable for piece of mind. When I'll sell car, it won''t be headache.
Another point, driving in low - I can readjust arms. Shims fixed, so no and no.

Last things, install adjustable arms is so easy, shims - it's real pain in ass.

IMO.

So, now I'm 8k miles on adjusted arms. No sign of inner wear at all. Very unhappy I did not do it from first day.

Thank you, haven’t installed the shims yet as I’m waiting to see if I even have to since I’ve swapped my 21s for 20in wheels.
But also my 21s on Goodyears showed absolutely no edge wear after 4K miles.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

No one has ever been able to get 40k miles out of any 21" tire on a Model S with factory suspension, ever.

Here is are my Continental ExtremeContact DWS06+ after 12k miles.

It's not the tire, it's the lack of ability to adjust the Camber without aftermarket parts.

View attachment 1054370

Perhaps there is an alignment issue with your car.

Have you had it checked yet?

If it IS within spec, I'd also submit a warranty claim with Continental as you may, or may not be, the only person to have had a tread separation of this nature . . . .

At least with Michelin's OEM tire, they knew full well how the car was to be spec'd and offered up their PS4 tire for this application, so no excuses there--the Michelin's need to be recalled given the massive number of tires coming apart just here on this now 87-page thread, and with untold thousands being replaced without being documented to the US NHTSA for a defect investigation.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

Dang it, now @TSLA Pilot has to figure out how Michelin produced these tires for continental...

Yes, we can extrapolate A LOT with a sample size of one Continental tire, can't we . . . .

 

[Sam1]

Yes, we can extrapolate A LOT with a sample size of one Continental tire, can't we . . . .

Sample size of one, yes we CAN extrapolate an extensive amount of information from a single instance.

Speaking of, you've had months now to come up with that single case of a PS4S "failure" by someone who has had a proper alignment and an aftermarket solution to resolve the alignment issues.

Have you been able to get that yet? It's just a measly single instance...

 

[TSLA Pilot]

Sample size of one, yes we CAN extrapolate an extensive amount of information from a single instance.

Speaking of, you've had months now to come up with that single case of a PS4S "failure" by someone who has had a proper alignment and an aftermarket solution to resolve the alignment issues.

Have you been able to get that yet? It's just a measly single instance...

Hmm, here's a novel idea: Tesla and Michelin might need to sit down in a conference room and get to the bottom of why so damn many MICHELIN tires have inner sidewall/tread separation issues . . . before someone gets hurt when a tire explodes at high speed on the motorway.

The absurd expectation among many at this thread that, "Gee, if you crazies that expect your tires to NOT come apart would just buy these magic beans, then your car would be fine!" is pure silliness.

I again point out that the OEM 19" tire, a Pirelli "EV" tire, has had (supposedly) a single failure on this thread, as in "ONE," and there are NO threads relating to such issues that I have noticed. Here we're closing in on Page 90 for the Michelin OEM tire . . . .

 

[AAKEE]

Hmm, here's a novel idea: Tesla and Michelin might need to sit down in a conference room and get to the bottom of why so damn many MICHELIN tires

It will all boil down to wheel alignment.
We know that Tesla is more than 100% non willing to do anything at it in their manufacturing process. Tesla throws cars together and the filosofy is to throw the problem in the hands of the owner.
A lot of other Teslas wear tyres as Tesla dos not take the time or care to make it right.

So, they are not willing to do anything about it. Any random Tesla out there destroying tyres will get the ”its a wear thing, not our problem” - answer.
It is a psychopathic way of thinking in this company - once they got your money you’re on your own.

 

[AMPd]

Hard to tell, but after 4.3k miles, it looks like the inside edges are wearing out.
Looks like I’ll be installing the shims and getting an alignment after all.

 

[Sam1]

Hmm, here's a novel idea: Tesla and Michelin might need to sit down in a conference room and get to the bottom of why so damn many MICHELIN tires have inner sidewall/tread separation issues . . . before someone gets hurt when a tire explodes at high speed on the motorway.

The absurd expectation among many at this thread that, "Gee, if you crazies that expect your tires to NOT come apart would just buy these magic beans, then your car would be fine!" is pure silliness.

I again point out that the OEM 19" tire, a Pirelli "EV" tire, has had (supposedly) a single failure on this thread, as in "ONE," and there are NO threads relating to such issues that I have noticed. Here we're closing in on Page 90 for the Michelin OEM tire . . . .

They don't need to sit down, it's an alignment issue. And pretty much everyone but you in this thread understands that.

I ask again, how many people running OEM suspension and a tesla alignment that was experiencing tire wear, are still experiencing the same tire wear after installing an aftermarket solution and having a proper alignment done?

That's an extremely simple question and you can't seem to answer it.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

They don't need to sit down, it's an alignment issue. And pretty much everyone but you in this thread understands that.

I ask again, how many people running OEM suspension and a tesla alignment that was experiencing tire wear, are still experiencing the same tire wear after installing an aftermarket solution and having a proper alignment done?

That's an extremely simple question and you can't seem to answer it.

I don't think we're even on the same planet on this issue.

You and others seem to think it acceptable that a mass market automobile should be required to have aftermarket modifications so the tires don't come apart?!?

Really?

Frankly, it is a patently absurd position to take.

I expect Tesla and Michelin to get to the bottom of the problem on new production MS's, and for Michelin to continue to replace ALL of the 21" OEM tires that continue to fail with inner sidewall/tread separation.

That so many people here expect "Joe Public" to just randomly know they supposedly need to modify their suspensions (and remove warranty coverage for same) is mind blowing.

I just expect OEM Michelin's tires to NOT come apart, like the OEM Pirelli tires that don't . . . .

 

[bkcyk]

I don't think we're even on the same planet on this issue.

You and others seem to think it acceptable that a mass market automobile should be required to have aftermarket modifications so the tires don't come apart?!?

Really?

Frankly, it is a patently absurd position to take.

I expect Tesla and Michelin to get to the bottom of the problem on new production MS's, and for Michelin to continue to replace ALL of the 21" OEM tires that continue to fail with inner sidewall/tread separation.

That so many people here expect "Joe Public" to just randomly know they supposedly need to modify their suspensions (and remove warranty coverage for same) is mind blowing.

I just expect OEM Michelin's tires to NOT come apart, like the OEM Pirelli tires that don't . . . .

You're starting to enter the weirdo zone dude. A lot of time on the www pulpit with little to no real action. lol

Those, like myself, who choose to remedy the rear T2 PS4S excessive inner wear problem with an aftermarket solution is NOT a tacit acceptance that Tesla's not at fault. They served us a sht sandwich, period.

So speaking for myself, action #1, I'm OK w/ taking matters in my own hands by spending $2K to never have to think about it again. I'm not going to sit idle and hope some keyboard jockeying on the internet will inspire Elon's crew to step up for a model that impacts maybe 2% of overall vehicle sales. Action #2, my first Tesla/MSP will be my last, but more so because Tesla service sucks (another topic).

Let's be clear that there is a net benefit of having full control over rear camber with adjustable arms. OCD me likes being able to dial it in to my exacting desires. My 10K miles young PS4Ss look as sexy as ever matched with my forged N2itives!

 

[turns2stone]

Why does it only impact the 21" wheels/tire? Outer diameter with the 19" is the same as the 21" set up.

 

[terranx]

Why does it only impact the 21" wheels/tire? Outer diameter with the 19" is the same as the 21" set up.

Lot of back and forth arguing on that one. You won't get a consensus.

I think it's a combo of the 21" tire in question (Tesla spec PS4S) being very sensitive to slightly off toe. Zeroing out the camber does apparently reduce enough load on the inner edge that the tire doesn't shred in 3k miles. But the Model S camber isn't particularly aggressive and shouldn't have to be neutered to have a tire wear properly. I would try to get the toe as close to middle of spec as possible.

I can only surmise that the misalignment contributing to the issue is relatively minor (otherwise the other cars should show uneven wear too, even if not as fast).

 

[AAKEE]

Why does it only impact the 21" wheels/tire? Outer diameter with the 19" is the same as the 21" set up.

19” is 1” less on the radius so the tyre is 1” higher in the side wall. This probably allows for more flex and that the issue is taken care of by the flex.

In Sweden we need to use winter tyres by law during 5 months, ( many need to use them for 6 months).

A common missunderstanding here in Sweden is ”It can not be the wheel alignment as the winter tyres wear perfect”.

Winter tyres have more thread, many saipes ( not sure about the spelling; but the many small cuts dividing the knobs in the thread).
Also many use a smaller diameter wheel with higher sidewalls to compensate on the total diameter.

It is very common that you can not see any signs of bad alignment som n the winter wheels despite the summer wheels taking a clear hit.

I used Michelin PS4S on my M3P, that was lowered 35-40mm and had similar negative camber as the MSP in low.

The first set of wheels, stock Pirelli P zero elect did wear more on the inside but not more than that I could change when the whole tyre needed the change.
I did not wear out the PS4S but I could see that the slight difference in wear on outer/inner was in pair with the Pirelli elect.

The winter tyres (used for 30K km +) did not show even the slightest sigb of uneven wear. Winter tyres was 19” with the same width but higer side wall to compensate.

The alignment was very carefully set, so in the sweet spot ( except not changed to adjustable camber arms so high negative camber).

 

[turns2stone]

19” is 1” less on the radius so the tyre is 1” higher in the side wall. This probably allows for more flex and that the issue is taken care of by the flex.

I assumed it would be related to this. But it still seems like if it's really a geometry issue, it will still happen (eventually) on the 19", just would be visible sooner on the 21s.

But as @terranx mentions, the tire compound of the 21" being different probably exacerbates the situation.