Plaid 21” rear tire woes - factory defect?

[brooklyn]

We are contemplating replacing the wife's 2019 eTron with something else and one of the vehicles on our radar due to their lease deals is the Rivian R1S. Motor Trend has an interesting article about Rivian owners wearing out tires in as little as 6k miles and flagged the below issue as the likely cause. Wondering if driving in the lowest mode is causing the same issue with the MSP?

When the Rivian’s air suspension lowers, the angle between the suspension’s upper and lower control arms changes, which alters the camber, making the tires now slant slightly inward at the top when viewed head-on. In other words, the R1 can be mildly stanced from the factory with negative camber. This means that in Conserve mode, it’s putting all its weight on one edge of the tires. The inside edges, in fact, which means you can’t readily see the wear. Driving around in Conserve mode the majority (or all) of the time is what wears them out.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

That makes no sense if camber arms and alignments are fixing the issue.

And also, there is no sidewall failure of any sort. The excess wear is typical of too much toe out and can be verified by the thousands of online photos showing examples of tire wear with excess toe out.

Somehow you have missed the dozens of photographs with the inner sidewall torn from the tread.

Recommend a revisit of this threads first 85-ish pages to see non-worn tires with tread separation at the inner sidewall, but only on the OEM Michelin 21” tires….

 

[canasion35]

Somehow you have missed the dozens of photographs with the inner sidewall torn from the tread.

Recommend a revisit of this threads first 85-ish pages to see non-worn tires with tread separation at the inner sidewall, but only on the OEM Michelin 21” tires….

How many other tire manufactures has Tesla shipped out 21” tires with for deliveries? To my knowledge the it’s only been the PS4S - and if that’s the case, then no wonder you’ve come to the conclusion you’ve come to…I.E. the PS4S’ are the only tire in your sample

 

[Sam1]

Somehow you have missed the dozens of photographs with the inner sidewall torn from the tread.

Recommend a revisit of this threads first 85-ish pages to see non-worn tires with tread separation at the inner sidewall, but only on the OEM Michelin 21” tires….

It's not "torn from the tread". It's simply excessive wear. Your exacerbations are entertaining for sure.

But since you feel the need to sort through 80+ pages of posts (lol) I'll repost the image. This is from greentheonly's model x with 22" pirelli

 

[lbowroom]

Somehow you have missed the dozens of photographs with the inner sidewall torn from the tread.

Recommend a revisit of this threads first 85-ish pages to see non-worn tires with tread separation at the inner sidewall, but only on the OEM Michelin 21” tires….

Like you, I initially thought the tires were the culprit. However the more I read and understood all the variables my opinion changed. The main driver of that change was understanding the effect dynamic toe change upon acceleration had on the stress the tire was put under and how they could be mitigated.

It’s not terribly difficult to understand. You could argue that Tesla should upgrade the flexy bushings or at least update the toe spec to remedy. Chasing Michelin to fortify their tire to prevent a scrub angle problem under acceleration isn’t the way.

 

[Bull]

Like you, I initially thought the tires were the culprit. However the more I read and understood all the variables my opinion changed. The main driver of that change was understanding the effect dynamic toe change upon acceleration had on the stress the tire was put under and how they could be mitigated.

It’s not terribly difficult to understand. You could argue that Tesla should upgrade the flexy bushings or at least update the toe spec to remedy. Chasing Michelin to fortify their tire to prevent a scrub angle problem under acceleration isn’t the way.

I went the opposite direction. Initially I thought it was all suspension geometry. Now I'm leaning toward a mix of both tire and suspension with the tire taking more of the blame. The fact that Michelin has acknowledged sidewall failures certainly supports the tires at least being partially responsible. What we really need is another tire of the same size that we can compare with the Michelin.

 

[Kohley]

I went the opposite direction. Initially I thought it was all suspension geometry. Now I'm leaning toward a mix of both tire and suspension with the tire taking more of the blame. The fact that Michelin has acknowledged sidewall failures certainly supports the tires at least being partially responsible. What we really need is another tire of the same size that we can compare with the Michelin.

Michelin might be eating some tires because of their relationship with Tesla. The alignment spec from Tesla is too aggressive to get good tire wear on 21s.

 

[Sam1]

I went the opposite direction. Initially I thought it was all suspension geometry. Now I'm leaning toward a mix of both tire and suspension with the tire taking more of the blame. The fact that Michelin has acknowledged sidewall failures certainly supports the tires at least being partially responsible. What we really need is another tire of the same size that we can compare with the Michelin.

run the pirelli taycan rears at a 305. The 5mm extra width on the inside will make zero difference and they're a 220tw so the wear will happen a lot faster than the PS4S, you'd be lucky to see 5k miles out of it before the bad alignment rips through a perfectly good set of tires for no reason other than to prove something we already know.

Hell, actually you may only get 3k out of them because I burn through them about every 6-7k when it's summertime, and that's evenly worn out.

 

[Bull]

run the pirelli taycan rears at a 305. The 5mm extra width on the inside will make zero difference and they're a 220tw so the wear will happen a lot faster than the PS4S, you'd be lucky to see 5k miles out of it before the bad alignment rips through a perfectly good set of tires for no reason other than to prove something we already know.

Hell, actually you may only get 3k out of them because I burn through them about every 6-7k when it's summertime, and that's evenly worn out.

It’s not how many miles you are getting. It’s the fact that those tires wear evenly that is important to this discussion. If other tires had the same inner wear then it’s easy to blame the suspension. So far the only tire that seems to be having inner wear issues is the PS4S. I have heard other stories similar to yours - even wear on other tires/brands.

 

[lbowroom]

It’s not how many miles you are getting. It’s the fact that those tires wear evenly that is important to this discussion. If other tires had the same inner wear then it’s easy to blame the suspension. So far the only tire that seems to be having inner wear issues is the PS4S. I have heard other stories similar to yours - even wear on other tires/brands.

He wears equally because he’s addressed his alignment…

 

[Bull]

He wears equally because he’s addressed his alignment…

Yes. I assumed that but it is still even wear. And yes, individual alignment is still a wild card from car to car.

What I am not seeing is a same size tire that is wearing unevenly like the PS4S. I only hear stories from people who switched to (often inferior) tires that wore evenly and they got 30-40k miles on them without alignment adustments.

My point is that I still believe that the PS4S is a big part of the problem.

 

[Sam1]

It’s not how many miles you are getting. It’s the fact that those tires wear evenly that is important to this discussion. If other tires had the same inner wear then it’s easy to blame the suspension. So far the only tire that seems to be having inner wear issues is the PS4S. I have heard other stories similar to yours - even wear on other tires/brands.

My tires wear evenly because I have a bunch of aftermarket parts on there. Prior to, the car chewed up the inside of the tires

 

[Bull]

My tires wear evenly because I have a bunch of aftermarket parts on there. Prior to, the car chewed up the inside of the tires

Were those the Pirellis or the Michelins?

 

[Sam1]

Yes. I assumed that but it is still even wear. And yes, individual alignment is still a wild card from car to car.

What I am not seeing is a same size tire that is wearing unevenly like the PS4S. I only hear stories from people who switched to (often inferior) tires that wore evenly and they got 30-40k miles on them without alignment adustments.

My point is that I still believe that the PS4S is a big part of the problem.

There were only two options for tires for years in the 295/30/21 size. One really hard and cheap tire that would obviously slide more because of the hardness, and wear less. Then PS4S.

I really have an issue understanding why there is such a hyperfocus on blaming the tires.

No one is having issues with the same PS4S after addressing the car's alignment, as long as they have a good alignment inducing a lot more positive toe, and not an alignment that's just as bad as Tesla's alignment.

 

[Sam1]

Were those the Pirellis or the Michelins?

Both. Unfortunately I can't go back in time and take photos

 

[Bull]

There were only two options for tires for years in the 295/30/21 size. One really hard and cheap tire that would obviously slide more because of the hardness, and wear less. Then PS4S.

I really have an issue understanding why there is such a hyperfocus on blaming the tires.

No one is having issues with the same PS4S after addressing the car's alignment, as long as they have a good alignment inducing a lot more positive toe, and not an alignment that's just as bad as Tesla's alignment.

I’m not saying it’s just the tires. I think it is an unfortunate combination of issues with both the tires and the car suspension. It’s even possible that the specific suspension geometry exacerbates an issue with the tires that would not be noticed on other cars.

Btw, I took your suggestion and changed my rear toe from 0.05 to 0.15. Will see if that helps a bit. Not willing to go much higher yet. Thanks!

 

[Kohley]

.30 is not a lot and the suspension setting has nothing to do with it. I've got a lot of aftermarket bushings and arms installed. The reason I did that was we made videos of it with the stock setup and you can watch the tire go toe out with all the stock parts. After upgrading everything, the videos show there's no movement now, but the car still handles better with .25 toe on the rear, 0.05 on the front and -1.0 to -1.2 camber for drag racing.

Unplugged was actually surprised to see how much dynamic toe out occurred in the video all the way up into the triple digits.

I had an AC Cobra that would get more toe out and negative camber on acceleration, dynamic toe out is down right scary, I had to set it an 1/8 in for it to be stable at high speed. .25 still seems like a lot but if its working for you and the rear end feels stable at speed, that might be the right setting. I have a 24 plaid with 19s, at high speeds over slight hills, loading and unloading, it feels floaty. I think its rebound control, I went to full sport in advanced setting, maybe toe moving around is contributing to it as well or as you are saying, soft suspension components contribute. My Plaid turns in pretty well, I suspect front toe is close to zero or slightly in, but its stable under braking, no hunting. To me its still a 5,000 pound car, its only going to handle so well, mine feels pretty stable for that weight of a car for my use case, street driving, it will stop 3 times in a row from high speeds with ice cold brakes, stock brakes work well for me. I only have 6k miles, so we will see what tire wear looks like over time. I appreciate all of your expertise and sharing your knowledge on this topic.

 

[cmarshack]

Yes. I assumed that but it is still even wear. And yes, individual alignment is still a wild card from car to car.

What I am not seeing is a same size tire that is wearing unevenly like the PS4S. I only hear stories from people who switched to (often inferior) tires that wore evenly and they got 30-40k miles on them without alignment adustments.

My point is that I still believe that the PS4S is a big part of the problem.

No one has ever been able to get 40k miles out of any 21" tire on a Model S with factory suspension, ever.

Here is are my Continental ExtremeContact DWS06+ after 12k miles.

It's not the tire, it's the lack of ability to adjust the Camber without aftermarket parts.

 

[lbowroom]

No one has ever been able to get 40k miles out of any 21" tire on a Model S with factory suspension, ever.

Here is are my Continental ExtremeContact DWS06+ after 12k miles.

It's not the tire, it's the lack of ability to adjust the Camber without aftermarket parts.

View attachment 1054370

Looks like a toe issue

 

[Bull]

No one has ever been able to get 40k miles out of any 21" tire on a Model S with factory suspension, ever.

Here is are my Continental ExtremeContact DWS06+ after 12k miles.

It's not the tire, it's the lack of ability to adjust the Camber without aftermarket parts.

View attachment 1054370

What were your alignment settings when this happened?