Poor Man's Model S

[dsm363]

Thanks for the info. I didn't know that. Ill blow through that 50K miles real fast, but i guess we'll just see what happens. The battery is my biggest concern since my Insight has gone through 3 of them in the last 12 years.



I thought that was optional? Do you have to get the checkup service? Does it include brakes? I calculated brakes into my math, but that was with me doing the work

It's technically optional but not really. You have to have the car inspected every one year or 12,500 miles whichever comes first. Tesla is the only authorized service people to work on the cars at this point. It is $475 per year if you prepay for 4 years or $600 per year. It does include brakes but they should last longer than 4 years in a EV anyway.

 

[jerry33]

I thought that was optional? Do you have to get the checkup service? Does it include brakes? I calculated brakes into my math, but that was with me doing the work

It's optional but Tesla requires you get the car serviced by qualified technicians every 12,500 miles (or 12,000 both numbers are in writing). The only qualified technicians are at Telsa. So you can either pay by the individual visit or buy the four years and get a discount. So it's optional like the pano roof is if you want adults to be able to sit in the back seat or leather is if you want heated seats.

It includes everything but tires. However, it will be a very long time before you need brakes.

 

[ckessel]

I thought that was optional? Do you have to get the checkup service? Does it include brakes? I calculated brakes into my math, but that was with me doing the work

There's a giant topic on it somewhere, but basically it's all inclusive except tires. They'll replace wipers, brakes, fluids, etc. It's optional, but if you don't get the maintenance done your warranty may be invalidated. In theory, you could get the maintenance done elsewhere or do it yourself, but you'd have to prove the maintenance was done by someone of appropriate skill with the relevant components. Given the Tesla motor, PEM, battery, etc are all only known to Tesla then in practice you'd best resign yourself to paying Tesla for maintenance.

 

[Alexander]

I hear you. However, I have done fairly well in my 2004 Prius:

Those are nice numbers. But where do you live? I'm in LA and have some serious mountains and traffic to contend with. I actually think that ill get 400 miles of range on my Model S because I spend most of my time in traffic driving between 2 and 10 MPH, lol.

Also are you able to install solar? Companies like Solar City have a pretty much "zero" installation lease cost and would further reduce your fuel costs.

I rent, I don't own (yet). I actually consider those energy costs I quoted for the Model S to be a luxury option. Most of the parks and/or malls I take my daughter to have free charging stations, and the offices/hospitals I go to have free charging stations as well. I'm going to try and get away with not charging it at home.

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There's a giant topic on it somewhere, but basically it's all inclusive except tires. They'll replace wipers, brakes, fluids, etc. It's optional, but

Ok, I can deal with that. I estimated $1,200 for brakes and tires so if thats included then that will actually save me money. But ill do 12,500 miles in my first three months. Ill ask my delivery specialist about prices for 4 inspections per year.

I hate to say it, but I'm really going to beat the !@#$ out of this car. My daughter is going to mess up the back seat with cheerios and juice boxes. Someone's going to crash into me because that tends to happen at least once or twice a year (last one was a hit and run). I really want something like the Leaf that I wont feel so guilty about when something inevitably happens. But Tesla is the only one with that awesome battery. Ill probably be the first one to hit 200K miles in a Model S... I'm not kidding

 

[kvietor]

The $600 or $1900 prepaid for 4 years covers everything except tires. But my service rep told me if I brought in a set he would mount, balance and align under the plan.

 

[Zzzz...]

Speaking of saving and warranty, could you get away with something like driving for a year, pay $600 for check up, then driving for another year and then decide, should you or should you not pay another $600 to keep car under warranty?

This way you will get 2 year warranty coverage for $300 a year. But I doubt it works that way...

 

[jerry33]

Those are nice numbers. But where do you live? I'm in LA and have some serious mountains and traffic to contend with. I actually think that ill get 400 miles of range on my Model S because I spend most of my time in traffic driving between 2 and 10 MPH, lol.

I'm in Texas, but when I've driven in serious mountains, the mpg doesn't really get any worse. I do try to avoid the worst traffic by careful route selection (I realize that's not always possible). Also the mpg I have received has improved each year, so I didn't always get that good mpg. Of course, when I first got my 2004 there wasn't as much known about driving the Prius 2G. Many things were tried and quite a few didn't work as advertised.

2004 Prius MPG from the logbook. (Complete years only):
2003-2004 -- 50.8 mpg 17,628 miles
2005 -- 52.6 mpg 14,688 miles
2006 -- 56.3 mpg 16,174 miles
2007 -- 57.3 mpg 18,384 miles
2008 -- 59.9 mpg 21,755 miles
2009 -- 61.4 mpg 16,177 miles
2010 -- 65.2 mpg 12,134 miles
2011 -- 66.9 mpg 11,272 miles


Most free public charging stations are really slow so unless you are there for a few hours each you're going to be pretty hard pressed to keep it charged.

 

[dsm363]

Alexander: did you say you have finalized already? I think getting answers to all of these questions and making sure the financials work first might be the way to go.

 

[kvietor]

Also keep in mind most Chargepoint stations only charge at a max 30 amps. If you're driving 200 miles a day your recharge time will be around 5-6 hours at least. Some of the sharper forum members can probably give you better numbers than I can.

I have about 2300 miles on my S and I have found that as long as traffic keeps moving you can get good range in the city but in my experience I find a steady 50-55 mph can give me over 300 projected miles on a max range charge and 260 on a standard charge.

 

[Discoducky]

@Alexander, Kudos to you, we've run our numbers as well and figured a break even point at 5 years with a 60kWh battery + some options. Can't wait to hear what your first drive review!

 

[Anzir]

I guess my only suggestion would be to consider in the risk level. If the car ends up being a lemon and Tesla goes bankrupt, you're stuck with a car with a likely low resale value and a very large auto loan. It might be advisable to wait a year or two to get a better idea of the car's longer term reliability as well as Tesla's longer term stability.

For someone in your income and family situation, that's a somewhat significant risk. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, but that it may be something to think about.

That was my first thought as well. In your case it's much more risky to be an early adopter. But most car purchases are driven much more by the heart, which they should be.

 

[49er]

I guess my only suggestion would be to consider in the risk level. If the car ends up being a lemon and Tesla goes bankrupt, you're stuck with a car with a likely low resale value and a very large auto loan. It might be advisable to wait a year or two to get a better idea of the car's longer term reliability as well as Tesla's longer term stability.

For someone in your income and family situation, that's a somewhat significant risk. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, but that it may be something to think about.

+1

You've probably thought about this already, but is it a possibility for you to reduce your commute? If you are currently doing that 200 mile commute every weekday and could reduce it by two-thirds, you will get back ~40 hrs/month of your time!

 

[Trnsl8r]

Did you get an insurance quote yet? I would think that expense would go up as well.

 

[Alexander]

I guess my only suggestion would be to consider in the risk level. If the car ends up being a lemon and Tesla goes bankrupt, you're stuck with a car with a likely low resale value and a very large auto loan. It might be advisable to wait a year or two to get a better idea of the car's longer term reliability as well as Tesla's longer term stability.

For someone in your income and family situation, that's a somewhat significant risk. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, but that it may be something to think about.

That's a good point. I didn't think about the possibility of Tesla could go belly up... But when I think about it now it doesn’t really scare me.

I know I can do this, because I’m really just moving my money from gas/parts/repairs/loan to (hopefully) just a loan and (assuming electric cars are as maintenance free as the claims) minor maintenance here and there.

I’m not afraid to fix certain things myself if it came to that. So if Tesla went out of business it would just mean a tighter community amongst us owners, and crossed fingers that my battery lasts the length of my loan.

Back in 2006 I actually re-wired the BCM & MCM in my Insight so I could take manual control of the electric motor. It gave me 20% better economy. I was deep into the owners group at the time, and everyone really helped each other out to make things like that happen. We voided the hell out of our warranties, but Honda didn’t appear to care, and it was fun (most of the time). If Tesla wasn’t around there wouldn’t be any risk in doing things ourselves.

So I guess as long as my battery lasts me the length of my loan, and/or a good 6 years of usability, I’ll be fine in a world with a postmortem Tesla.

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+1

You've probably thought about this already, but is it a possibility for you to reduce your commute? If you are currently doing that 200 mile commute every weekday and could reduce it by two-thirds, you will get back ~40 hrs/month of your time!

God I wish. I'm training someone to help me, but ill still have to do a fair amount of driving. I think that’s one of the minor reasons why I want to get a Tesla. Ellon hates LA traffic as much as I do, and wants whoever is in charge fired. Buying one of his cars is small way for me to say “I’m with you buddy.” lol

 

[dsmith2189]

I actually think that ill get 400 miles of range on my Model S because I spend most of my time in traffic driving between 2 and 10 MPH, lol.

I rent, I don't own (yet). I actually consider those energy costs I quoted for the Model S to be a luxury option. Most of the parks and/or malls I take my daughter to have free charging stations, and the offices/hospitals I go to have free charging stations as well. I'm going to try and get away with not charging it at home.

Alexander: I ran the numbers the same as you. part of my solution was to use the VA IRRRL program to refinance my mortgage and save a few hundred on my monthly payment. since you rent you didn't have that option. also, by my calculations I will be saving about 2/3 of my monthly energy (gas/Electricity) consumption. so I will be rolling both of those "savings" into my car payment.

as far as getting 400 miles... good luck. you can read about others who have tried it in other threads... maybee you will be the one to accomplish Elon's challenge.

 

[strider]

I’m not afraid to fix certain things myself if it came to that. So if Tesla went out of business it would just mean a tighter community amongst us owners, and crossed fingers that my battery lasts the length of my loan.

This is my feeling as well. There is already a community around the Roadster and folks here have built systems to access the car and provide an interface to it via mobile phone so we can check on the car's status around charging, location, etc. I'm confident that if something happens to Tesla the folks here will pull together. That's another benefit of using industry standard 18650 cells. It would be fairly straightforward for someone to go into business refurbing Tesla batteries. I love your plan. Keep refining the numbers but I hope it works out! I think it'll make a statement driving a Model S around a Marine base and the more of them we get on the road the less time we can spend in the sandbox.

 

[DouglasR]

Alexander,

It sounds like you've thought this through. I did see one thing that I didn't understand, however. You said the Model S would pay for itself in four years. When I subtracted the costs of operating the Model S from your current costs, I got about $8300 per year. Over four years, that is around $33,000. Are you comparing the Model S to some other car, to keeping your existing cars, or what? Because the 85kWh Model S is lots more than $33,000. What am I missing?

Also, if your cost calculation includes a $7500 tax credit for the Model S, be aware that you need to be paying at least $7500 in federal income tax in 2013 (or whenever you buy the car) in order to claim that amount. It is not a rebate, and it cannot be used to offset Social Security payroll or other taxes, nor can it be carried forward to future years. The average federal income tax for someone making $40,000 per year with one dependent is around $2,000. If that is what you pay in federal income tax, then the maximum credit on the Model S would be $2,000. The cost of the 85kWh Model S without the credit is $77,400. If you add California sales tax (LA), delivery charges, and other Tesla charges, the total comes to around $85,700 by my calculation. Subtract the credit, and you are still looking at $83,700. Is that the amount you included in your calculations?

Like others, I am not trying to discourage you. I hope you can get the car, and I know you will love it. But I wanted to make sure that you had considered these issues.

 

[Omer]

I actually think that ill get 400 miles of range on my Model S because I spend most of my time in traffic driving between 2 and 10 MPH, lol.

Most of the parks and/or malls I take my daughter to have free charging stations, and the offices/hospitals I go to have free charging stations as well. I'm going to try and get away with not charging it at home.

Alexander, how do you drive 200 miles in a day mostly in very slow traffic? Just drive time would be far more than a normal work day without any actual meetings.

If most of the places you visit have charging stations than a Chevy Volt might be a good candidate - the entire 36 month lease on a Volt is about half what you intend to put as just a down payment on the Tesla.

By choosing a car that currently has a lease program, you would be able to get the benefit of the full $7500 credit without needing to have a $7500 tax liability. I understand you will blow through the lease mileage limit, but you can set up the lease where you just buy the car at the end so it's the same as owning the car and you don't have to worry about mileage.

Another option is to buy a slightly used car where the first owner already used the tax credit so the car costs significantly less than MSRP used. Used Leafs are selling on Ebay for $20k. Enginer makes a extra battery that increases range 60 miles for $7500. Or you could buy 2 Leafs and leave one at the end of your commute.

I'm not trying to be discouraging, just want to make sure the decision is a rational one and not one of those situations where someone wants something so they artificially make the math work in their favor. The most cogent way to think about the math in my opinion is to not compare the Tesla to what you have now but rather to the next most efficient non-Tesla option. So assume the Tesla didn't exist, what would the next most efficient set-up be? Slightly used Prius, Volt leased with buyout at the end and charging during the day, Leaf with extra battery, 2 Leafs etc. Then compare that solution to the Tesla and see if you are still coming out ahead.

 

[Alexander]

Alexander,

Subtract the credit, and you are still looking at $83,700. Is that the amount you included in your calculations... I wanted to make sure that you had considered these issues.

Do you want to look at my spreadsheet? It would be nice to get a second pair of eyes on it. What I did was calculate the total cost of ownership, which includes the purchase cost of both my cars at $25,819.81.

 

[brianman]

Do you want to look at my spreadsheet? It would be nice to get a second pair of eyes on it.

Great idea. Lots of interested minds that like looking at the numbers on this forum. Just make sure you pull out any personal info you don't want web exposed.