Potential BOLT customers being suctioned up by Tesla !

[dandelot]

CCS seems a fine idea, but if you have to sign up with 6 different companies (or more) to get wide area coverage of usable stations it will be useless. We got one card (usable in San Francisco and nearby counties, for the most part) and signing up for others...ugh. Moreover we rarely have any reason to use that company's stations. Home, SC, and hotels provide nearly all the charging we have ever needed.

 

[Right_Said_Fred]

I don't think GM will receive enough batteries to produce more than 30,000 Bolts per year, at least for 2017, which is the first year of full production. There will be 500,000 reservations for Model 3 by that time, probably more. Tesla is since two days frantically looking for ways to accelerate Model 3 production (not the starting date, but the ramp), and they probably will succeed. So those Bolts will hardly make a dent in Model 3 demand.

 

[EVNow]

GM could grab some of the Model 3 customers. If the Bolt is available in the Fall, offer a deal to Model 3 RN holders. Something like a 4 year lease and $3k lease cash for $199/mo (first edition car, residual is somewhat subjective). Talk up the features er, feature of the Bolt; "it's a hatchback!". The Model 3 customers will have their cash tied up in the Bolt by the time it's the Model 3 configure moment and they'll have to cancel or take a big loss.

How about a lease which ends when I get the 3 ? That would motivate me

 

[jbcarioca]

I don't know about you, but I just can't wait to charge at 1/3rd the speed of a supercharger at 1/3rd of the national locations. There's nothing better than spending an hour charging inside a dealership parking lot for every two hours of driving. I also cannot wait to fight over other EV drivers over the 1-2 slots that will exist at each of these locations as opposed to the 4-16+ slots that exist at every supercharger.

You're also assuming that the Supercharger network will never have a next generation, when they've long been rolling out liquid-cooled cables to prepare for upgraded charging speeds.

You're also assuming that a single company will roll out a comprehensive, cohesive well-supported CCS network suddenly springing out of existence of the loose consortium of dealer-run CCS chargers available now combined with random pay-per-use chargers from five different companies. Or you're assuming the US government is run entirely by EV-friendly politicians, which is perhaps even more unbelievable than a legacy automaker starting a competitive charging network.

Please, please don't insult Tesla by even remotely comparing CCS or chademo to the supercharger network. It's night and day, as big a difference of Mirai versus a Model S.

You have not begun to examine the facts. CCS2mis the deal. You're comparing apples and oranges.,CCS2 will have much higher speeds than Supercharger does now. Please don't dissbTesla in their decision to join CCS. That is all albeit the future, not the present. Please read about it! We'll not lose anything. Supercharger max is about 135 kWh CCS2 will be 500. Tesla is moving to this in order to give a faster more nearly ubiquitous service. In CCS2 the entire Tesla auto protocol will be dupported. You are showing CCS original, just like supercharger was in 2013. The whole network will expand and update, especially following the Tesla conversion process.

I repeat: to see what is happening you need to read the source data:
CCS Specification: Charging Interface Initiative e. V. (CharIN e. V.)

 

[eloder]

You have not begun to examine the facts. CCS2mis the deal. You're comparing apples and oranges.,CCS2 will have much higher speeds than Supercharger does now. Please don't dissbTesla in their decision to join CCS. That is all albeit the future, not the present. Please read about it! We'll not lose anything. Supercharger max is about 135 kWh CCS2 will be 500. Tesla is moving to this in order to give a faster more nearly ubiquitous service. In CCS2 the entire Tesla auto protocol will be dupported. You are showing CCS original, just like supercharger was in 2013. The whole network will expand and update, especially following the Tesla conversion process.

I repeat: to see what is happening you need to read the source data:
CCS Specification: Charging Interface Initiative e. V. (CharIN e. V.)

It is indeed apples and oranges, CCS can't even come close to competing with the supercharger tech.

Gen1 CCS is substantially slower than superchargers, gen2 CCS will be substantially slower than gen2 superchargers.

I don't think Tesla would ever dismantle its entire charging network and replace it with something entirely new and slower, just so Bolts can charge slightly faster than they can now.

 

[Az_Rael]

Has anyone checked in over at the Volt/Bolt forum lately? Curious what they think of the Model 3.

LOL, I am a regular member on the Volt forums as well as here. Its 180 degrees over there towards the 3 vs here. They aren't confident in Teslas ability to survive and worry that buying a 3 will make them end up with a car they cant service if Tesla goes under. They also much, much, much prefer hatchbacks so the 3 isn't even an option for many of them.

Many of them who are potential 3 buyers (and who put reservations down) are going to lease a Bolt while they wait for their 3. Heck, I would do that if my Volt was older and I thought I could stick within the mileage limits.


I will say that anyone who poo poo's GM's ability to make compelling EVs needs to go test drive a gen 2 Volt. They did an amazing job improving on the owner feedback for the gen 1 Volt with the Gen 2. I came from driving a Lexus to my gen 1 Volt and was blown away with how refined a car GM put together. I have test driven the Gen 2, and it is even more impressive. I think they are fully "in" on this EV trend and will continue to make great alternatives to Tesla.


And, for the person who asked if they had started production, yes they have. They released a video showing the first units running through the line a few weeks ago. We will see Bolts at dealers by the end of this year I would bet.


Everyone here needs to take a chill pill and be glad that one of the Big 3 Detroit automakers is making a serious go at this. Isn't that all part of Teslas vision?

 

[jbcarioca]

CCS seems a fine idea, but if you have to sign up with 6 different companies (or more) to get wide area coverage of usable stations it will be useless. We got one card (usable in San Francisco and nearby counties, for the most part) and signing up for others...ugh. Moreover we rarely have any reason to use that company's stations. Home, SC, and hotels provide nearly all the charging we have ever needed.

CCS2 is the solution. Tesla, as a member, can have CCS2 work just like superchargers. Plug in charge and leave. That is not possible today. Tesla joined with CCS2 as the promise.

 

[jbcarioca]

It is indeed apples and oranges, CCS can't even come close to competing with the supercharger tech.

Gen1 CCS is substantially slower than superchargers, gen2 CCS will be substantially slower than gen2 superchargers.

I don't think Tesla would ever dismantle its entire charging network and replace it with something entirely new and slower, just so Bolts can charge slightly faster than they can now.

CCS2 supports up to 500 kWh. Tesla has no internal development that fast. Please, we all need to understand that EV's are about to become ubiquitous. Ultrafast charging is part of that. Elon has fought for industry commitment. It us finally arriving. That is why Tesla has joined CCS.

 

[ken830]

For multi-car families, you can easily own a Tesla (S, X, III), and another long-ish-range EV that doesn't need long-distance capabilities. Especially if the tax credit is gone for Tesla but still available for GM. We currently have a Model S 85 and a Rav4 EV, and I placed two reservations for the Model III. Not sure what to do yet, but it keeps my options open.

 

[techmaven]

You have not begun to examine the facts. CCS2mis the deal. You're comparing apples and oranges.,CCS2 will have much higher speeds than Supercharger does now. Please don't dissbTesla in their decision to join CCS. That is all albeit the future, not the present. Please read about it! We'll not lose anything. Supercharger max is about 135 kWh CCS2 will be 500. Tesla is moving to this in order to give a faster more nearly ubiquitous service. In CCS2 the entire Tesla auto protocol will be dupported. You are showing CCS original, just like supercharger was in 2013. The whole network will expand and update, especially following the Tesla conversion process.

I repeat: to see what is happening you need to read the source data:
CCS Specification: Charging Interface Initiative e. V. (CharIN e. V.)

I did read the source data and the specs. The protocol is defined out to higher charge levels, but the plugs are not.

Furthermore, the higher kW rates as quoted incorporates higher voltages than what is common today. For example, the current plug standard is defined to 200 amps. At 500 Volts, that's 100kW. But since no one arranges their packs that way, the realistic charging peak is something around 350 volts X 200 amps or 70 kW. Similarly, to achieve 350 kW, we are talking 350 amps at 1000 volts. Who is realistically setting up their packs that way? How many are realistically implementing the liquid cooling necessary to hit 350 amps? The entire CCS effort looks like a complete mess, even if one of the big issues is sorting out which charging points are 11kW!! versus 24 kW versus 50 kW, or 150 kW.

 

[eloder]

CCS2 supports up to 500 kWh. Tesla has no internal development that fast. Please, we all need to understand that EV's are about to become ubiquitous. Ultrafast charging is part of that. Elon has fought for industry commitment. It us finally arriving. That is why Tesla has joined CCS.

If CCS was so great, Tesla wouldn't have leapfrogged them four years ago with the first supercharger--back when Tesla had a tiny fraction of the money/resources they do now.

Tesla isn't going to create some sort of network that's going to turn the Bolt into a long-distance vehicle. Future vehicles, sure--if other automakers agree to join on with Tesla, not if Tesla decides to join in with other automakers.

 

[jbcarioca]

If CCS was so great, Tesla wouldn't have leapfrogged them four years ago with the first supercharger--back when Tesla had a tiny fraction of the money/resources they do now.

Tesla isn't going to create some sort of network that's going to turn the Bolt into a long-distance vehicle. Future vehicles, sure--if other automakers agree to join on with Tesla, not if Tesla decides to join in with other automakers.

That is, in part, why CCS2 came to be. PLEASE read the data to understand why Tesla joined. Tesla joined to get economies of scale when the rest of the industry moved to ultrafast charging as the objective. please don't think Tesla gave up by joining. Tesla joined when everyone else accepted the Tesla priorities.

 

[Lunarx]

LOL, I am a regular member on the Volt forums as well as here. Its 180 degrees over there towards the 3 vs here. They aren't confident in Teslas ability to survive and worry that buying a 3 will make them end up with a car they cant service if Tesla goes under. They also much, much, much prefer hatchbacks so the 3 isn't even an option for many of them.

Many of them who are potential 3 buyers (and who put reservations down) are going to lease a Bolt while they wait for their 3. Heck, I would do that if my Volt was older and I thought I could stick within the mileage limits.


I will say that anyone who poo poo's GM's ability to make compelling EVs needs to go test drive a gen 2 Volt. They did an amazing job improving on the owner feedback for the gen 1 Volt with the Gen 2. I came from driving a Lexus to my gen 1 Volt and was blown away with how refined a car GM put together. I have test driven the Gen 2, and it is even more impressive. I think they are fully "in" on this EV trend and will continue to make great alternatives to Tesla.


And, for the person who asked if they had started production, yes they have. They released a video showing the first units running through the line a few weeks ago. We will see Bolts at dealers by the end of this year I would bet.


Everyone here needs to take a chill pill and be glad that one of the Big 3 Detroit automakers is making a serious go at this. Isn't that all part of Teslas vision?

Leasing a Volt now.
It is a surprisingly good car.
It has adequate urban EV Range and is able to take long trips without a worry.
I don't think 200 mile range and superchargers are the answer to worry free travel.
Volt wins there.

However the Model 3 has:
Better Performance.
Better Back Seat (Volt back seat sucks).
More Luxury Options (to take it higher upmarket).

I reserved a Model 3, based on above advantages.
However, I can see always wanting a Volt around to supplement the Model 3.
Model 3 might eliminate need to keep a sports car, if I got the performance model.

Crazy thing is, I bet the Volt is 500lb lighter than the Model 3 and it has more total range.
I don't think it is so bad to burn gas (@ 40mpg) on remote highway drives and stop when and wherever you want to refuel and keep going.

 

[bpk6]

I'll be honest...I'll probably check out and test-drive the Bolt when it comes out. Sure, it won't have the status and style of the Model 3, but it ticks off a lot of the right boxes for me, AND it's a hatch. Something I was hoping and expecting the Model 3 would be.

You can always lease the Bolt for a few years and return to Tesla for the Model Y.

 

[Ghostman]

Interesting side point...I received a Google rewards survey today asking if I was familiar with the Chevrolet brand and products... I lined up in-store for the model 3 reservation and have never stepped into a Chevy dealership. I wonder if they are starting to try to gather info from Tesla pre-order folks for an upcoming Volt/Bolt campaign. Good luck to them

 

[Jeff N]

The entire CCS effort looks like a complete mess, even if one of the big issues is sorting out which charging points are 11kW!! versus 24 kW versus 50 kW, or 150 kW.

Huh?

I think you are overstating things here. CCS already has 200A in an approved specification and as you noted that probably peaks in reality around 70 kW for today's typical packs but it's not horrible, especially for local and regional metro charging. One of the station vendors, Delta, says they can support up to 240A uncooled for a typical peak rate of around 85 kW which is about the same as Tesla's original 90 kW peak.

There appears to be a clear path to 350A (with perhaps up to 400A for a period of time) via liquid cable and plug cooling for heavily used interstate charging sites that would come quite close to what Tesla can do today (around 120 kW) while keeping charge voltages in today's typical 350-400V range.

The CCS plugs and sockets are already rated for at least 1,000V so that provides a clear path to future packs and stations that can realistically charge at a peak of 140-170 kW without cooling or 250 kW with cable and plug cooling. With existing lithium ion pack technology that should scale up charging for 150 kWh packs for cars with 400-450 miles of range all while retaining backwards compatibility with old 24 kW local charging stations.

 

[ggnykk]

The only thing GM can do now is cut the price of Bolt to make the competition more even. It is too late for them to change the design or anything significant.

 

[AndreSF]

Important thing to realize is everyone has their own circumstances, wants & needs. So, saying something is not "viable" is as weird as saying a Mazda Miata is not viable because it can't carry the whole family.

A 200 mile range BEV - even without QC - is much better than a 100 mile BEV with QC (like Leaf) for me. Of course Leaf 2 with 200 mile range and some QC is better than 200 mile BEV without QC. I can easily go to all the local areas of interest without worrying about recharging. Also, given that in winter, freeway driving gets Leaf to 60 miles or less, 200 mile range (which will get down to 150 miles or so) would be much better. Add to that the fact that most people want some buffer ...

There are a lot of people for whom 3 with superchargers will not be viable for long distances because they don't go along the "correct" routes or because they want a bigger vehicle to carry a lot of things (like tents and bikes etc). They will use the EV for shorter distances and take an ICE for longer trips.

As I said, there are a lot of different scenarios in which Bolt would be good enough.

So, everyone is different, but somehow my opinion is weird? Interesting argument...

Everyone is different, sure, but statistics suggest that most people would be more then fine with 80 - 100 rated miles of range for daily needs, especially coupled with some ability to "trickle" charge at work place, for example. Can't argue with statistics... So, based on that, what is the point of carrying larger battery if you can't quite use it for long distance travel, or at least nothing facilitates such travel in Chevy's plan that I know of?

Now, argument of "correct route" is just as applicable to Bolt as it might be to Model 3 or Model S, while ever spreading network of super chargers is filling gaps at relatively steady pace.

So, again in my opinion, Bolt is not a viable EV without charging infrastructure, and that is why I consider Volt a more sound solution at this time.

 

[EVNow]

So, everyone is different, but somehow my opinion is weird? Interesting argument...

That is not what I wrote.

Everyone is different, sure, but statistics suggest that most people would be more then fine with 80 - 100 rated miles of range for daily needs, especially coupled with some ability to "trickle" charge at work place, for example. Can't argue with statistics...

What stats ? Link ? BTW, I argue with the way stats are collected and interpreted all the time.

Just look at the number of multi-car households. Over 60%, IIRC. So, for them to have one BEV and one PHEV for long distance travel makes a lot of sense. I said that in 2011 - and it still makes a lot of sense.

So, again in my opinion, Bolt is not a viable EV without charging infrastructure, and that is why I consider Volt a more sound solution at this time.

For whom - that is the question. You aren't speaking for everyone, are you ? If you say it is not viable for you - I'd completely agree. But arguing that something is not viable for everyone because you only considered scenarios you know is incorrect.

 

[Mark Z]

I enjoy attending a meeting of EV owners in SoCal. Originally for Leaf enthusiasts, the group has met for years and always feature great discussions across the dining table as the information about different makes and models of BEV are shared. The technical discussions sometimes center on improving range and efficiency and can help any EV owner. Other topics are enjoyed as the easy going group is well rounded and flexible. Several have Tesla Model S; the quality and performance of Tesla Motors is well known.

I found today's EV meeting exceptionally interesting. 9 out of the 10 attending reserved a Model 3 in the last two days.

Chevy Bolt likely lost some sales among these BEV owners interested in longer range and more efficiency.

If you have time, enjoy the camaraderie twice a month: SoCal LEAF & EV Gathering - City of Industry - 2 Apr 2016 - My Nissan Leaf Forum