The bigger question DO THEY FOLD??? in the 5 passenger configuration. That could explain the late availability.
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gjunky
Trifecta: Solar and both cars are EVs
@engle: your confirmation letter and picture shows 6 seats but your "paperwork" shows 7 seats. Did you change it or is there a discrepancy? (My apology if I missed something in all the posts)
I don't necessarily disagree (esp with the rollout management comments!). But while the Pano and X windshield/skylights aren't directly analogous, the S without Pano is way behind the base X in that department, so from my perspective I include Pano price.
MrBoylan
Member
To what $500 difference are you referring? You're paying $144,950 for each fully loaded Sig. Looking at engle's production configuration, it's $145,450 *without* 22-inch wheels or premium paint or 72-Amp charging (base charging on the production model is 48A). So if you max out a production order with all the options, it's $145,450 plus $4,500 for 22-inch wheels plus $1500 for premium paint plus $1,000 for 72-Amp charging ("off the menu option"). By my math that's $152,450 for a production configuration - $7,500 more than what the Sigs paid for the same configuration.
But the *real* bargain is the Founders series X for those who had 10 or more S referrals. I haven't seen any exact pricing on that yet, but heard that it was going to be somewhere around $110,000 or $115,000 (does anyone have confirmation on that yet?). So that's at least a $30K savings off the same production configuration. Sweet!
I agree that some options would clearly result in delay. But only Performance-deliveries until second half of 2016? That’s way worse than expected. I`ve monitored Tesla closely since 2012, but I was not fairly clear to me that no 90Ds would be delivered for another 8 months. But I agree that Tesla seems to have serious problems with ramping up production. And this results in Tesla prioritizing the top end models for a long time so they keep as much revenue as possible when ramping up is problematic.
I`ve followed the development of Model X since 2012 when deliveries were expected to start at the end of 2013. 2013 turned into 2014. 2014 turned into 2015. 2015 turned into 2016, and early 2016 has now turned into late 2016.
Of course, I understand that Norway won`t see any cars before loads of US production cars have been delivered. But for now it seems as if my X90D is yet another year away. Completely different from what I expected back in august when I thought I saw a snowball-effect (launch event, sigs getting invited to configure.) After this I`ve seen nothing but new invitations to configure.
Sorry if I sound pessimistic. I do love Tesla, and no other car is an alternative to me. But I do feel deeply disappointed that Tesla keeps giving unrealistic timeframes. Fall 2016 delivery can quickly turn into winter 2016/17 delivery. Thus far I`ve seen nothing but delays, and a cool launch event that eased my pains for a few weeks
I don't think it is unreasonable to make the comparison, though there are clearly not exactly comparable.
The X panoramic windshield and Falcon Wing "roof windows" provide views of the sky from the 1st and 2nd row seats, and they add cost to the vehicle. However, they are standard.
The S panoramic roof provides views of the sky from the 1st and 2nd row seats, and it add cost to the vehicle. However it opens, and it is an option.
So to more accurately compare the vehicles on price you need to configure the S with a pano roof.
I can see it both ways.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
Signatures are fully loaded for one price - the 'thank you' on the Sig X is that the cost of a fully loaded Sig is significantly less than a fully loaded production.
No credit for down-grading seats, getting 20" instead of 22", not opting for multi-coat paint, etc. That was true on Model S Signatures, also.
I understand the frustration, but I think you have to at least consider Tesla's perspective here. As much as we like to think Tesla is completely in the clear, it has a challenging rampup of one of the most complicated production vehicles in the world, it is indeed burning through cash fast and needs to make as much money as possible as efficiently as possible to survive and keep growing, and it will be more efficient to batch production.
Not saying it doesn't suck, and as someone considering a 70D X, it's a deterrent. But I think the broader perspective/needs explains the story and logical reasoning.
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Say wha???
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That is a good point, but there's scarcely a place where it isn't useful (even in Norway, ~90% -- guessing -- of the vehicles you're driving behind are spewing pollution into your car, and that can very definitely shorten your life or at least make it less pleasant) and I doubt it costs a great deal more to include it as standard.
But it's a way to squeeze some more money out of early adopters, which is what Tesla needs to do to succeed, and I think we all need Tesla to succeed... and as fast as possible. So, I'll take it as a net neutral.
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I can see how you can see it as a delay, but for anyone who has closely watched Tesla's development, I think it was fairly clear that all of the options wouldn't be on the table from day 1. If Tesla could ramp up that fast, it probably would, but it takes a lot of time and work (and money) to get production going full speed and satisfy ~30,000 reservations. That's the annual production target for the Chevy Bolt.
Tesla needs to deliver 30-40k model x next year to meet their projected deliveries. Based on their own projections they b should deliver a minimum of 15k in the first half of the year. There is absolutely no way the existing reservations will yield 15k P90D orders.
So one of the following will be true:
1. Tesla will deliver the 90D sooner than the middle of the year
2. Someone that orders in jan/Feb will get a car before someone who gave them a deposit 4 years ago
3. Tesla will miss their delivery targets again
MrBoylan
Member
The second row seats are independently adjustable. I played with that a bit at the reveal in Elon's X. Each seat has its own controls for front/back movement. I believe the center seat has its controls in the middle bottom of the seat (reach down in front of you in the seat to find the controls). They can also move as a single block.
de704
XP268
It took me 20 minutes to configure and lock in last night. I don't know what took the Sigs. so long.
MrBoylan
Member
Both great ideas, but they do not appear to be options. 70D, 90D and P90D are the only options. 90D and P90D come with air suspension and it doesn't look like there is a way to deselect it.
I suspect that the 70D will be magically bumped up to a 75D as deliveries get closer. No one would complain about that. But that's really speculation on my part (just based on Elon's deleted tweet - "something like a 70" - and projected cost savings/battery improvements from the gigafactory).
CarlK
Active Member
It's not only Tesla but many high end car companies do that too. You still can't buy the base model of the hot selling Mecan in the US at its second year. Porsche did the same when new Cayman and Cayenne was introduced years ago. You have to pay to be the first ones to enjoy it and many people did.
That's my thought too but then again I believe it will affect the resell value since most people would want it. I might still end up getting it.
Total +1, this is completely unfair, we should mass email ownership. My parents are 65+ they have no need for a 700+ hp SUV... this is for the lack of a better word... Ludicrous!
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
If my son decides when I hit 65 that I don't have need for 700+ hp, we're going to have a problem.
Good catch!
Yes, I originally configured 6 seats because I preferred it from "The Reveal" founder car I rode in 2nd row of. Our family size is only 3. However, when we got home, my wife pointed out for our business use case, (showing clients property), we should have 5 guest seats. Thus I changed from 6 configured with my iPhone+/Safari browser to 7 with my server/Chrome.
Tesla did not generate an updated MVPA. I need to ask them about that when I call/email to add the 72 amp A/C charger $1K option that's not web-configurable.
chickensevil
Active Member
I agree that some options would clearly result in delay. But only Performance-deliveries until second half of 2016? That’s way worse than expected. I`ve monitored Tesla closely since 2012, but I was not fairly clear to me that no 90Ds would be delivered for another 8 months. But I agree that Tesla seems to have serious problems with ramping up production. And this results in Tesla prioritizing the top end models for a long time so they keep as much revenue as possible when ramping up is problematic.
I`ve followed the development of Model X since 2012 when deliveries were expected to start at the end of 2013. 2013 turned into 2014. 2014 turned into 2015. 2015 turned into 2016, and early 2016 has now turned into late 2016.
Of course, I understand that Norway won`t see any cars before loads of US production cars have been delivered. But for now it seems as if my X90D is yet another year away. Completely different from what I expected back in august when I thought I saw a snowball-effect (launch event, sigs getting invited to configure.) After this I`ve seen nothing but new invitations to configure.
Sorry if I sound pessimistic. I do love Tesla, and no other car is an alternative to me. But I do feel deeply disappointed that Tesla keeps giving unrealistic timeframes. Fall 2016 delivery can quickly turn into winter 2016/17 delivery. Thus far I`ve seen nothing but delays, and a cool launch event that eased my pains for a few weeks
So the difference this time around is contributed by significantly more reservations than on the S. But as others have stated, they started with sigs, moved to performance production owners, regular 85kWh purchases, and finally the 60s (and few 40s) which the first 60s had to wait almost a full year after deposit to see the first deliveries. Europe didn't even start until well after a year past the reveal. So while it was suspected that they might deliver to EU customers sooner this time around, there was no comment made by the company in either direction to my knowledge.
So this time around, there should be no surprise that they deliver P90Ds before the 90Ds which are before the 70Ds. On the plus side this vehicle is better than they were originally promising back in 2012. You have larger batteries, better performance (I don't know if you recall, they were shooting for a sub 5 second time originally and now we have an almost sub 2 second time), vented seating, heated steering, auto-pilot (and other active safety features), awesome filter, LED headlights, etc. I think the only thing people were disappointed on was the lack of second row seat folding but everything else was pretty much the same or improved in some way, so I would suggest that it might have been worth the wait!
