Range Reduced on Dual Motor Configs?

[uselesslogin]

I will admit it's possible the EPA has decided that Tesla needs to use a charge level based on real world charge preferences of owners. But I'd expect to see all the window sticker values to be adjusted as a result not just the P85D.

To be clear I also expect all the window sticker values to be adjusted as well. I would think Tesla would want to do it just because they don't want people passing on a P85D because they think the range is worse. I see two possibilities myself. One is a blog post soon describing how the range is calculated under new rules and reducing the EPA range of all Model S variants. The other is that P85Ds start showing up with stickers that have a higher combined mileage on it because the EPA decided to allow it at the last minute (I think that is less likely). For me I am stuck on the combined MPGe being the same and the fact we can get 284 miles @65 mph from the math we tried with the 90% assumption. I'm sure there will be more info soon as people start taking deliveries.

 

[David_Cary]

I say this with all sincerity, and in admiration for those of you who have been discussing this in great depth: there is little doubt in my mind that if those in charge of testing at the EPA put as much thought into designing fair and accurate testing as you guys have put into trying to figure out just what has been done here with the new Tesla EPA ratings for the P85D, etc. and what this all means, we'd have much better standards and much more transparent and meaningful EPA ratings.

+1

I believe the standard for retesting a car is substantial change in the car not model year. Of course P85D is a substantial change. I think it is possible that the performance emphasis, weight, and 21 in tires has made the difference. I also suspect that at 65 mph, the actual range is very close to (if not better than) a P85+.

In the Leaf world, the EPA numbers have been questioned since 2011. The numbers changed in 2013 both up and down - increased efficiency and rule change. The end result was exactly the same range at 65 mph. Forum members did the testing - it was the only way to get a real answer. If you compare model years, 2014 has the greatest range but will not travel further than any others at a steady state highway speed. In the Leaf case, MPGe went up like 10% but led to zero real world range increase. The range actually went up 15%. So it is funny to see us analyzing a much smaller change in MPGe and thinking it changes the true range. One of the Leaf issues was weight reduction but while that helped city MPGe, it did not change real world steady state range (in a measurable way).

Last comment - the EPA tests very few cars. Manufacturers test the cars. About 10-15% of new models are checked by the EPA as an audit. Hyundai was recently fined and I believe Ford got a pass but changed their numbers after fudging the tests. Not saying that Tesla did anything with the test. It should be noted that the testing conditions are up to interpretation and can be "wrong" with out true malice. Also the EV test is different but the fact is that conditions are up to interpretation. It is possible that testing conditions were different for the P85D even without a secret EPA rule change.

 

[Saghost]

How are you doing the math to come up with 277 miles?

I took a delta-variance approach that's much simpler than what you're doing, but still valid in this case I believe - there's no reason to think the charging losses will be any different on the P85D, so they don't matter in a delta analysis.

If the 265 number was based on pure city efficiency, then the P85D would be rated (86/88*265) = 259 miles with the same usable charge. If it was based on pure highway, it'd be (94/90*265) = 277 miles. With any ratio of the two driving types, you'd get a result between those two.

Thus my point - for the car to be rated 86/94 and 242 miles, the battery charge level *must* be different from the prior EPA testing. Any of the other factors folks are throwing out - 21" wheels, power biased efficiency, etc - would change the 86 and 94 MPGe numbers as well.
Walter

 

[felixtb]

Thus my point - for the car to be rated 86/94 and 242 miles, the battery charge level *must* be different from the prior EPA testing. Any of the other factors folks are throwing out - 21" wheels, power biased efficiency, etc - would change the 86 and 94 MPGe numbers as well.
Walter

+1!

 

[breser]

Problem solved. Tesla order page has been updated with EPA numbers.

S60: 208
S85: 265
S85D: 265
P85D (21" wheels): 242
P85D (19" wheels): 250

So the wheels were the big contributor to the 242 number. The weight, performance setup etc, is the reason for the 15 mile drop on the P85D.

There is a disclaimer saying the 85D and P85D is pending confirmation:
"Range shown for 85D and P85D is estimated, pending EPA confirmation. Range decreases when Model S is equipped with 21" wheels and summer sport tires."

 

[dennis]

Problem solved. Tesla order page has been updated with EPA numbers.

S60: 208
S85: 265
S85D: 265
P85D (21" wheels): 242
P85D (19" wheels): 250

So the wheels were the big contributor to the 242 number. The weight, performance setup etc, is the reason for the 15 mile drop on the P85D.

Good find, and it is nice to know that it was not a change in the testing procedure or averaging 80% and 100% charges or ...

So 1/3 or the loss (8 miles) is due to the tires, and 2/3 (15 miles) to the dual motor config/weight. That means those of us trading up from P85/P85+ with 21's should see less of a decrease than originally indicated.

 

[darthy001]

@Dennis but at the same time as this confirms that the sticker with 242miles of range is legit. That indirectly confirms that highway range is actually longer on the P85D than it was on the P85(+).

At least for me that is the important aspect. I never drive within the range limits in the city. Some extra highway-miles though that is very welcome:smile:

 

[vgrinshpun]

There was an email from Jerome Guillen implying that the difference in the EPA numbers is not due to change of EPA testing procedure (averaging range for 80% and 100% charge), but is due to different tuning of the two drive unit in P85D vs 85D.

Tesla Answers P85D Range Questions and Assesses Next Gen Seats Availability | Forums | Tesla Motors

TESLA ANSWERS P85D RANGE QUESTIONS AND ASSESSES NEXT GEN SEATS AVAILABILITY

Pungoteague_Dave | NOVEMBER 9, 2014

Last week I received a call from the DS for our incoming P85D, informing me that the car will have less range than our outgoing S85. This was troubling, as our homes are 190 miles apart and our S85 often arrived with only a few miles remaining range in subfreezing weather. I considered downgrading to an S85D, but that car isn't available with the great new seats. I therefore sent an email to Jerome Guillen asking for definitive answers and guidance. Today he answered as follows:
"Dear David:
Thank you for your message and sorry for the slow response.
The P85D and the S85 have about the same range at constant speed on the highway. However, in EPA range testing (combination of cycles), the P85D is expected to have a lower rated range than the S85. If you want to maximize range, I would recommend the 85D, whose deliveries will start in February 2015. That’s our vehicle with the longest range. At the moment, we are supply-constrained for the new generation seats: that’s why they are only available for the P85D (arguably most needed for that car, given its acceleration). Over time, it is likely that we would extend the availability of the new generation seats beyond the P85D, but it is not for sure and I wouldn’t be able to promise a date. If you decide to stick with your current P85D, it is expected to be delivered in December.
I wish there was a perfect answer to address all your questions and concerns (which are very valid). I need however to share the facts as they are today.
Xxxx, whom I have copied on this message, is most familiar with your account and can help you for any way you decide to move forward. Thank you again for your continued support! Best regards,
Jerome Guillen I VP, WW sales and service I [email protected] I 45500 Fremont boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 I tel 650.681.xxxx I mobile 503.970.xxxx or 650.946.xxxx"

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

The penny drops... I guess 250 miles (for my P85D with 19"s) is plenty good.

 

[dhanson865]

Problem solved. Tesla order page has been updated with EPA numbers.

S60: 208
S85: 265
S85D: 265
P85D (21" wheels): 242
P85D (19" wheels): 250


So the wheels were the big contributor to the 242 number. The weight, performance setup etc, is the reason for the 15 mile drop on the P85D.

There is a disclaimer saying the 85D and P85D is pending confirmation:
"Range shown for 85D and P85D is estimated, pending EPA confirmation. Range decreases when Model S is equipped with 21" wheels and summer sport tires."

How about we add back in all the numbers we know?

S60 208 miles EPA
S60D 225 miles (last number on US ordering website before they cancelled that model)
S85 265 miles EPA
P85 265 miles (last number on US ordering website before they cancelled that model)
P85+ ??? miles
S85 265 miles EPA
S85D 265 miles EPA (295 miles posted before EPA number)
P85D 19" 250 miles EPA (275 miles posted before EPA number)
P85D 21" 242 miles EPA

presumably if you hypermile the S85D you'll get more range than the S85 but YMMV.

 

[dennis]

S85D 265 miles EPA (295 miles posted before EPA number)
P85D 19" 250 miles EPA (275 miles posted before EPA number)
P85D 21" 242 miles EPA

Note that the 295 and 275 numbers were for a constant 65 mph, not for the EPA test cycle which varies speed and has a least 50% City driving profiles.

 

[darthy001]

Note that the 295 and 275 numbers were for a constant 65 mph, not for the EPA test cycle which varies speed and has a least 50% City driving profiles.

Didnt it actually say 285 for the P85D at the end?

 

[Rice390]

This whole discussion is pretty disappointing to run through. While I have absolutely zero confidence the EPA can do anything right, we have to go by what has been posted because Tesla has given us nothing in return. Is 240 miles enough range for most of us? Sure. But that shouldn't be the focus. We all just dropped $120,000 on a 285 mile car, and the week of the first deliveries tesla says whoopsies, we meant 240. Are there any lawyers on this board that can clarify the legality of this?

That said - I'm going to give tesla the benefit of the doubt on these EPA numbers and I'll trust the actual reports from the customers when these get rolled out. If the customer numbers match up with the EPA, you can bet your bottom dollar there will be some legal ramifications if Tesla doesn't provide some discount to those who are getting something different than what we paid for. What a mess.

 

[Denarius]

This whole discussion is pretty disappointing to run through. While I have absolutely zero confidence the EPA can do anything right, we have to go by what has been posted because Tesla has given us nothing in return. Is 240 miles enough range for most of us? Sure. But that shouldn't be the focus. We all just dropped $120,000 on a 285 mile car, and the week of the first deliveries tesla says whoopsies, we meant 240. Are there any lawyers on this board that can clarify the legality of this?

That said - I'm going to give tesla the benefit of the doubt on these EPA numbers and I'll trust the actual reports from the customers when these get rolled out. If the customer numbers match up with the EPA, you can bet your bottom dollar there will be some legal ramifications if Tesla doesn't provide some discount to those who are getting something different than what we paid for. What a mess.

All Tesla had in writing was that you could go 285 at 65 miles per hour. That has nothing to do with the EPA range.

 

[nolancn]

I can't quite make sense out of the EPA estimates for the P85D unless there is a different methodology in place for evaluating this vehicle relative to the S85. S85 has an overall MPGe of 89 as does the P85D. Highway/city efficiency for the S85 is 90 MPGe/88 MPGe while for the P85D highway/city efficiency is 94 MPGe/86 MPGe. P85D highway/city numbers were taken from a photograph of a P85D Monroney window sticker posted on the P85D delivery tread 12/4/2014. This would imply the P85D would be approximately 4.4% more efficient on the highway at whatever speed EPA highway numbers are derived and would travel further than the S85 at that speed. Tesla clearly stated that the D variants of the Model S would have greater efficiency (implying improved range) relative to the RWD variants. Given all of this I do not understand how the range for the P85D with 19" wheels would be 250 miles. Since both vehicles have the same battery this yields only two possibilities; Tesla was wrong about its initial statements, or there is a different methodology used to derive range for current models that was not in place when the S85 was originally tested. The latter seems to be more likely if the post showing the Moroney window sticker MPGe numbers are correct. Remember that the original stated range for the S85 was 300 miles only to be reduced to 265 miles as the EPA instituted a new 5 step testing procedure by the time the vehicle was actually being produced and delivered to customers.

 

[Saghost]

Since both vehicles have the same battery this yields only two possibilities; Tesla was wrong about its initial statements, or there is a different methodology used to derive range for current models that was not in place when the S85 was originally tested. The latter seems to be more likely if the post showing the Moroney window sticker MPGe numbers are correct. Remember that the original stated range for the S85 was 300 miles only to be reduced to 265 miles as the EPA instituted a new 5 step testing procedure by the time the vehicle was actually being produced and delivered to customers.

That's exactly the way I read the situation - which leaves me a little bit confused by the Jerome email.

 

[dennis]

Remember that the original stated range for the S85 was 300 miles only to be reduced to 265 miles as the EPA instituted a new 5 step testing procedure by the time the vehicle was actually being produced and delivered to customers.

The 300 number was an Ideal range at a constant 60 mph IIRC. When the EPA numbers came out at 265, Tesla added the Rated range setting and set the estimate for a full battery to 265 in that mode. You can still see 300 (on a new battery) if you switch the range display to Ideal in the control panel.

 

[breser]

That's exactly the way I read the situation - which leaves me a little bit confused by the Jerome email.

That Jerome email isn't new I posted it many pages back. The only thing new is people are now reading more into it.

 

[wk057]

Well, I for one am certainly disappointed in the drop in range estimate for the P85D. I don't care what they put behind the number on the page (65 MPH, EPA, whatever). Doesn't matter. It said "285 miles" for the P85D before. Now it says "242 miles." That's 38 miles lost between the time I placed my deposit and today with no compensation.

I have the P85. EPA miles of 265. On a 100% charge in good weather the best I've ever been able to do was 249 miles with 4 miles left, so, ~253 miles on a charge. I've never reached the 265 estimate even with very conservative driving. So, when it says 242 miles to me that means 225 as a top possible now since the estimates/rated/etc numbers are never right. When it said 285, I figured 260 would be pretty possible. With the 85D I was figuring 270 might be normal (295 estimate).

The range estimate makes no sense if the P85D and the P85 have the same combined MPGe, however, so something is definitely wrong with these numbers.

 

[PlanB]

Jerome has an Oregon cell number, that's cool.