Rated range loss after 1 year

[djp]

I have done this every time I did range charges but there doesn't seem to be much balancing going on based on the numbers. What I wonder is, if you are seeing say 245mi at 100% but if it was balanced it might be 255mi, will the number of miles you can drive, or the kWhr consumed be similar for both? or are there 3kWhr of power added in the balancing? RC 6s packs take a little while to balance for not much power being added at all.

To balance quickly you need to let it sit at a range charge and repeat a few times. The balancing "bleeds off" the highest cells and allows the pack to charge higher on the next range charge.

As mentioned, this is pretty much the worst thing you can do for cell degradation, especially in the heat.

 

[djp]

Does anyone know if the actual performance (acceleration) of the car degrades as the battery do?

Performance is slightly better at high charge than low charge. As the battery degrades you'll be spending less time at high charge, and it has higher internal resistance, so yes performance will be slightly worse.

 

[umuhk]

I have noticed that a 100% charge takes approximately half an hour longer than it seems like it should; the time-remaining display will sit at "1 minute" for about half an hour when the pack is at 100%. I had always assumed that this was the time during which any pack-balancing activity was going on. You can certainly stop charging when it's at this point, and the pack really is at 100%, but I wonder if proper balancing requires the charge cycle to complete normally.

 

[rpavlicek]

I'm at 19000 miles on my 60kW. Range Charge Yields 204 Miles. I do not baby my pack. I use it as I would any other vehicle. I've range charged 60-70 times since getting the car (No point in not if I'm not going to make it home otherwise). I do not leave it sit at range mode. I do 90% charge daily. If it is going to be a long range kind of day, then I range charge 1 hour before going.
I've had my Model S as of writing this, 7 Months, 2 weeks 8 Hours 54 minutes.

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You did not mention how many miles on your vehicle. As for me, The day it was delivered, my Range charge was 209 miles. Now, one note, I have not let my pack balance recently. Usually, when doing a range charge, it will hang on 5minutes or 1 minute remaining for 20 minutes to a hour. I have not had the luxury of letting it complete that charge. When it does that, that is when the pack is getting balanced. So after some balancing, my range might be even better. I do know I have been draining the crap out of my pack lately. Due to the extreme cold (we hit -30*F Beginning of the week for example) and that taking a toll on range (Heater use, pack warmer, cold weather inefficiencies etc.. but mostly pack warmer and heater use), so my car is most likely really out of balance.
Just dropped it off tonight at Highland Park Service Center due to more water in my tail lights, so my car will finally be out of the cold (It's a driveway car so cold soaked daily), and being nice and warm, I will range charge it their (remote app when the plug er in) and see what I get. Temperature DOES MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE, though, not really until you get below about 32*F is when that difference is noticeable. Example, if my rated range is 204 miles then the car is nice and toasty warm, and I move it outside and let it cold soak, that range will drop down to say, 190, or even have seen as low as 182. But move that car back into a warm heated garage, and watch the range climb back up to 204 as the pack warms from the ambient heat.

I have around 13k miles.

Another thing I noticed is that I lose 8-9 miles per night. This is with the sleep mode on. (Perhaps I need to reset the computer for it to actually work?).

I'm on the latest version 5.8

 

[FredTMC]

Eventually, I will be forced to spend more and more time at 100%.
Just about 1 year for me, 60kWh, 13.5k miles
last 2 range charges got to 192 rated miles.
90% charge is at 169

I think the highest I ever saw was 203 (when it was brand new there was some software bug that showed max range miles of 197, but it stayed there for a long time once you started driving)

My 60 has over 21k mi now. I get 200mi on a range charge still (100% charge). I went to Vegas earlier in the week and range charged at barstow. I still get around 172 on a standard (90% charge). I'm very satisfied with these results after 20k miles.

 

[Todd Burch]

If you really need all the range, you'll be range charging more frequently, and your pack will be better balanced. If you don't need it, the displayed range doesn't really matter.

I think all these attempts to determine degredation based on the car's indicated range are useless, as everyone has a different pack balance state. Given Tesla's virtual silence on the issue, I think they're quietly trying to tell us to stop worrying about it. Just drive your car!

I also believe that attempts to balance your pack for the mere sake of getting higher range numbers do more damage to your pack than good. Just range charge when you need it, don't when you don't, and have fun!

 

[Benjamin Brooks]

Here is what I find odd with the number of miles remaining. Look at the series below and note that at 50% charge I have 102 miles and at 100% charge I have 266 (both rated). Shouldn't I have about 133 at 50%? Even 90% doesn't make sense at 222. Just for the record I got the car in April and have 6000 miles.

Simple, the battery charge curve is non-linear

 

[FatSal]

Simple, the battery charge curve is non-linear

Funny I deleted my post because I realized I made one fatal flaw. I mixed different versions of software. I thought I had images all from 5.8, but as you can see my 90% and 100% were earlier from when we couldn't set the charge level from the app. Please ignore my mistake. Thanks.

 

[islandbayy]

Simple, the battery charge curve is non-linear

You are correct! Another thing that MANY people forget about, is the higher the voltage, the better/higher the efficiency. Less losses due to heat from the resistance in the wiring all the way from the battery right on to the inverter.
It might not make a difference at lower power demand (say, 30kW, or maybe even 60kW), but when you get in to flooring it, that makes one hell of a difference!

 

[apacheguy]

My experience is very close to yours. My car is now giving me between 205 and 211 miles at 90% (as noted at the time I wake up in the morning after auto-charging at 1:00AM). I have not done any special "balancing charge, just normal charging with a range charge about once a month. It is cold now, so that may be affecting the reading, but I am concerned with the amount of range loss in the first 14 months of operation. I wonder if "B" battery chemistry has a different degradation profile. If things continue on this curve, it will be interesting to find out what is considered normal degradation in terms of the battery warranty.

@DaveVa - I am seeing very similar numbers. 212 rated miles at 90% and 244 at 100%. I am also concerned regarding potential differences in the A/B pack degradation profiles.

I think you guys should keep your cars 100% charged (ignore the on screen warning) for several weeks. This is the advice I got from Tesla when I reported my P85 was showing a rated range of 231 miles at 100% charge. I am now at 255 rated miles.

Not doubting that Tesla gave you this advice, but IMHO this sounds like horrible advice. I would not recommend this.

I think all these attempts to determine degredation based on the car's indicated range are useless, as everyone has a different pack balance state. Given Tesla's virtual silence on the issue, I think they're quietly trying to tell us to stop worrying about it. Just drive your car!

Oh yeah because nothing could go wrong when we put blind confidence in TM's silence, right? 90 kW supercharge limitation anyone?

 

[bwilliams]

Found this thread via search so not sure if there's more current discussion.

I did my first range charge last week at 6900 total miles. I've had the car for about 9 months. My first range charge gave me 190 miles. I was pretty disappointed and freaked out. Is there anything new information about this? I wish I'd done a range charge once at the beginning to see if it ever had 208 miles! Is this true battery degradation or because I've never "balanced" the battery (something I'm not sure I want to do if it truly degrades the battery)? My typical, daily charge limit is set to about 60%.

My 60 has over 21k mi now. I get 200mi on a range charge still (100% charge). I went to Vegas earlier in the week and range charged at barstow. I still get around 172 on a standard (90% charge). I'm very satisfied with these results after 20k miles.

 

[islandbayy]

Found this thread via search so not sure if there's more current discussion.

I did my first range charge last week at 6900 total miles. I've had the car for about 9 months. My first range charge gave me 190 miles. I was pretty disappointed and freaked out. Is there anything new information about this? I wish I'd done a range charge once at the beginning to see if it ever had 208 miles! Is this true battery degradation or because I've never "balanced" the battery (something I'm not sure I want to do if it truly degrades the battery)? My typical, daily charge limit is set to about 60%.

Do a few range charges. A couple days in a row. Set your charge amperage so that the charge finishes about 1-2 hrs before you plan to leave so it doesn't sit at 100% very long. Do this 2-3 days in a row, you will see a improvement. My original battery had 203 rated after 1 year and 34,000 miles before contactor went.

 

[mknox]

Very odd occurrence today. I have been charging to 90% daily and seen a few miles of Rated Range return, but seem to have plateaued at about 219 or 220 miles. Also what is typical is that if the charge completes sometime in the night, there will be anywhere from 1 to 3 miles less showing in the car than what the app notification shows me. Today, the app notification showed that the charge (to 90%) completed at 5:20 am with 219 Rated miles. When I got into the car at about 7:30 am, the dash was showing 223 miles -- 4 more than when it had completed. That's a first for me.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Very odd occurrence today. I have been charging to 90% daily and seen a few miles of Rated Range return, but seem to have plateaued at about 219 or 220 miles. Also what is typical is that if the charge completes sometime in the night, there will be anywhere from 1 to 3 miles less showing in the car than what the app notification shows me. Today, the app notification showed that the charge (to 90%) completed at 5:20 am with 219 Rated miles. When I got into the car at about 7:30 am, the dash was showing 223 miles -- 4 more than when it had completed. That's a first for me.

Is Range Mode on?

 

[mknox]

Is Range Mode on?

Nope. Rarely ever use it.

I did try the trick of flipping it on a while back and saw the range numbers go up a bit, but since the latest version of 6.0 was downloaded, I don't notice it if I try toggling any more. Maybe I'm just not waiting long enough for the change to show up on the screen, but before it was pretty quick and apparent.

Bottom line is that I rarely, if ever, use Range Mode, so my comments here are around using the car with Range Mode off.

 

[glhs272]

Found this thread via search so not sure if there's more current discussion.

I did my first range charge last week at 6900 total miles. I've had the car for about 9 months. My first range charge gave me 190 miles. I was pretty disappointed and freaked out. Is there anything new information about this? I wish I'd done a range charge once at the beginning to see if it ever had 208 miles! Is this true battery degradation or because I've never "balanced" the battery (something I'm not sure I want to do if it truly degrades the battery)? My typical, daily charge limit is set to about 60%.

I think the Decreasing Rated Range thread is what your looking for. It's an on going conversation there. I would recommend charging 90% or greater...always. I haven't found any good examples of people "babying" their packs by charging sub 90 and showing range holding very well. On the other hand, people such as me who have been consistently charging to 90% are seeing very little degradation. This leads me to recommend only 90% daily charging full stop, regardless of your daily range needs.

 

[TexasEV]

I think the Decreasing Rated Range thread is what your looking for. It's an on going conversation there. I would recommend charging 90% or greater...always. I haven't found any good examples of people "babying" their packs by charging sub 90 and showing range holding very well. On the other hand, people such as me who have been consistently charging to 90% are seeing very little degradation. This leads me to recommend only 90% daily charging full stop, regardless of your daily range needs.

I charge my 60kWh car to 90% daily, except for the 8-10 times over the past 16 months that I've charged to 100% for a trip. My full charge is 204 miles compared to 208 miles new. I don't consider that a significant loss.

 

[bwilliams]

I'd be very happy with that! You live in a hot climate too, so that says more than owners in cooler climates. It's been very hot in my garage this summer; well over 100 degrees many days/weeks and I've been reluctant to charge to high state of charge. That obviously didn't work or matter.

I just called the service center and the guy told my 10% loss in the first year is expected. Seems that some of you have not experienced this 10% loss ...

I charge my 60kWh car to 90% daily, except for the 8-10 times over the past 16 months that I've charged to 100% for a trip. My full charge is 204 miles compared to 208 miles new. I don't consider that a significant loss.

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Just curious about how low your state of charge is before you recharge.

I don't drive big distances hence the low miles on my car (with no use of the car due to travel for longish time periods). The guy I just spoke with said I should let the battery get low once in a while and then charge.

I think the Decreasing Rated Range thread is what your looking for. It's an on going conversation there. I would recommend charging 90% or greater...always. I haven't found any good examples of people "babying" their packs by charging sub 90 and showing range holding very well. On the other hand, people such as me who have been consistently charging to 90% are seeing very little degradation. This leads me to recommend only 90% daily charging full stop, regardless of your daily range needs.

 

[ImperialG]

I've got a 2013 60kWh Model S and my vin is in the 5000's. I hit 42,000 miles this week and my battery charged t0 209 rated miles this week, although that was the first time that I've seen it hit 209 on a full charge.

I'm really in need of a 85kWh battery since my commuting miles have significantly increased since receiving the car in March 2013, so it's very likely that I'm going to start doing a 100% range charge everyday from now on. I've got my fingers crossed that Tesla will offer a battery upgrade when the gigafactory is complete.

 

[bwilliams]

OK, so I'm obviously doing something wrong. Do you live in a hot climate? No matter, good deal for you.

I've got a 2013 60kWh Model S and my vin is in the 5000's. I hit 42,000 miles this week and my battery charged t0 209 rated miles this week, although that was the first time that I've seen it hit 209 on a full charge.

I'm really in need of a 85kWh battery since my commuting miles have significantly increased since receiving the car in March 2013, so it's very likely that I'm going to start doing a 100% range charge everyday from now on. I've got my fingers crossed that Tesla will offer a battery upgrade when the gigafactory is complete.