(Reported on 12/26/2015) 11+ car wait at Tejon Ranch!

[MITE46]

Even a webcam would be better than nothing!!

I've got a portable 4G/LTE webcam that operates on solar...I just need a place to mount it! Any ideas?

Anyone know the owner of the yogurt land?

 

[russman]

Without knowing when off-peak is, we're just all guessing. I guessed Saturday would be more off peak then Sunday. Looks like so did everyone else. Other then driving in the middle of the night, which defeats the whole purpose of a leisurely road trip. I think one poster said they did the night trip, didn't have to wait for any charging but was dead tired after it.

This is typically a 6 hour drive in an ICE. With the Model S, it's now an 8 hour drive with 3 stops, which was fine, because we could go to an outlet, grab lunch, etc... It turned into an 10+ hour drive because of the extra 2 hr wait and until we have more information about other Tesla's charging or going in the direction you're going, it's still going to be a gamble, until the infrastructure is better. I remember driving the ICE long time ago and there was a long line at the gas station at Tejon, so I just jumped to one of the other 3 gas stations and went on my way.

 

[spottyq]

One other concern would be security/safety reasons. Making information public might make nefarious individuals pay attention to when a single car is charging at a remote/isolated Supercharger. The typical way to solve this would be to add some kind of noise to the data stream (in the style of differential privacy), but it's not a trivial issue.

I don't see how that can be a problem.

Either you are close to the supercharger and you can actually go after the guy charging (but then you don't need the information from Tesla, you might as well just look for yourself) or you are far from the supercharger and then by the time you arrive, the guy charging will be gone.
Anyway, a simple solution is to not display anything when there are less than 3 cars charging (Ok, it does not work for 2 stalls supercharger.)

 

[stopcrazypp]

I don't see how that can be a problem.

Either you are close to the supercharger and you can actually go after the guy charging (but then you don't need the information from Tesla, you might as well just look for yourself) or you are far from the supercharger and then by the time you arrive, the guy charging will be gone.
Anyway, a simple solution is to not display anything when there are less than 3 cars charging (Ok, it does not work for 2 stalls supercharger.)

The way to solve this is to only show it on Tesla cars through a secure connection.

Although I'm not sure stall status is necessarily that big a privacy concern. Chargepoint has that function. The other suggestion of showing nearby cars however is a big privacy problem.

 

[flankspeed8]

battery swap will not be a realistic mainstream solution until they figure out a way for you not to have to return to swap it back to your original. Plans change and diversions happen, the current battery swap solution does not take this into account. Leasing the battery perhaps? Apply some sort of dynamic value based on pack age/use and credit or charge accordingly? There really could be some exciting developments with this regard. Leasing a larger pack for a long trip?

 

[sorka]

All the same silly arguments by Tesla lovers who refuse to take the blinders off and see that their beloved Tesla is NOT PERFECT!! Same arguments as last time this happened over Thanksgiving.

Gets annoying to read all the people defending that this is not a problem and everything is just great. Telling you to drive slower, change your plans and drive on different days, skip chargers. Sure you "can" do all of that, but the point is, you spend close to (or more) than six figures on this car, you SHOULDN'T HAVE TO do those things!!

This is why the EV market will remain at 1% for the foreseeable future. Tesla doesn't advertise free charging on long distance trips with the caveat that you might have to wait 3 hours to get charging spot. They brag about how fast you can charge and that it's only a slight inconvenience versus an ICE car. This IS a problem. Waiting 1, 2 or 3 hours in line is a problem. Keep in mind people, there are only 100,000 Tesla's on the road. Telsa plans to nearly double that next year, thus doubling the problem and wait times. What happens when they start selling 500,000 cars a year??

I love my car, but would be pissed off if I got stuck in that line. And people seeing this issue that are thinking about a Tesla, will think twice. EV owners accept the inconvenience of having to charge, but there's a limit for all of us. Turning what would be a 2-3 hour trip into a 6-8 hour marathon is likely well beyond most people's limits.

Wake up people and see reality. Funny thing is, all those arguing that it's not a problem are those that were not stuck in the line!!

Tesla really needs to re-think the battery swap program, even if only on busy weekends. I'm sure each and every one of those cars in line would have gladly paid $50-$60 to get on their way!! I wrote a whole thing last time this came up about how they could implement a battery lease program so you don't have to worry about returning the battery, so I won't re-write it all again here.

I hope they find a way to resolve this issue soon. Otherwise word is going to get out that Tesla is not prepared to have another 100,000 cars on the road, let alone 500,000 and will absolutely hurt sales, stock prices and the company overall.

The movie studios use those HUGE generators when they're on location. If they don't want to revisit the battery swap program, then maybe on Holiday weekends when they know it's going to be a problem, the should bring in some of those generators to add temporary chargers. Not a good long term solution, but could be an immediate solution to avoid pissing off a bunch more people over New Years, Easter, etc, etc, until they come up with a more viable long term solution.

It's showing up in the news already. I didn't even find this by searching. Someone I know who was thinking about buying a Tesla, saw this, sent it to me, and then told me they're not considering it any more because this would never be acceptable:

Long Queues Cause Multi-Hour Wait For Tejon Ranch Tesla Supercharger s Why It Was The Perfect Storm | Transport Evolved

I also have a deal with my wife that the first time we have to wait in line for more than 20 minutes to charge, I have to sell the car(if she's with me. i.e. if she has to wait). Why? Because this was one of her concerns when I pitched my case for buying the Tesla. I showed her Tesla's 170 miles in 20 minutes claim and told her that long waits would be unlikely.

I rolled the dice on Fourth of July and we never had to wait (Atascadero). I rolled the dice on Thanks Giving (drove from Merced, CA to Phoenix, the Grand Canyon, and back. Never had to wait.

But after seeing this, it's clear I was lucky and I need to consider taking the Prius on the long trips when a long wait might be a possibility.

 

[flankspeed8]

The bad PR from even a once in a year event that impacted a small percentage of customers can never be minimized. Sometimes I think there is to much optimism that Tesla is immune to this because of the heartiness of early adopters.

 

[sorka]

It's time for Tesla to build a small fleet of mobile super chargers that can be driven to trouble spots based on real time usage and about to be used data. I don't mean the kind that are temporary like the ones Harris has. I mean big trucks that have 4 chargers built in with crazy large generators. This way they can service the few locations that get super busy 3 or 4 times a year without having to add stalls that will be unused 99% of the time.

 

[Saghost]

It's time for Tesla to build a small fleet of mobile super chargers that can be driven to trouble spots based on real time usage and about to be used data. I don't mean the kind that are temporary like the ones Harris has. I mean big trucks that have 4 chargers built in with crazy large generators. This way they can service the few locations that get super busy 3 or 4 times a year without having to add stalls that will be unused 99% of the time.

The downside to this approach is the 480 kW diesel generator that's now creating the power for supercharging - all the drawbacks of an ICE car back (noise, pollution, fossil fuels, etc.)

You're also assuming that there will only be a few locations that get busy on those days, and that Tesla will know which ones in advance. If that's really true, it makes more sense to diversify with secondary locations around those critical ones and manage the flow between them, I'd think.

 

[spottyq]

The downside to this approach is the 480 kW diesel generator that's now creating the power for supercharging - all the drawbacks of an ICE car back (noise, pollution, fossil fuels, etc.)

You're also assuming that there will only be a few locations that get busy on those days, and that Tesla will know which ones in advance. If that's really true, it makes more sense to diversify with secondary locations around those critical ones and manage the flow between them, I'd think.

Also, 500 kVa generators weight in at 6 tons (12 000 pounds) and are not the kind that can go on the bed of a pickup.
You still need the actual supercharger (to convert AC to DC.)

These generators consume close to 100l/h (25gallons/h) of diesel when running at full load.

And that's only for 4 stalls.

So, yeah, it is certainly possible but not as easy as it sounds.

 

[viperboy]

what happened to that dashboard Tesla used to have at Howthorne? Did they ever release that to the public or have any recent pictures? I think a few guys could make a web app in less than a week with that data. (Add in the SCs that are on people's "route" / nav)

 

[sorka]

I agree with all of the sentiments above. I think a complex algorithm that attempts to give us information about how many cars are waiting is great, but a little pie-in-the-sky for right now. TM has the data of how many people are charging at a given destination, and has always had that data. When Mojave was closed the other day, I called TM ahead of time to ensure it was functioning again. They were able to instantly tell me how many people were charging at that exact moment.

It would be nice if they could tell you how many Teslas were at that location that have not *yet* charged since they also have that data. They also have the SOCs of each Tesla charging and not currently charging yet along with how many Teslas are inbound.

 

[Saghost]

Also, 500 kVa generators weight in at 6 tons (12 000 pounds) and are not the kind that can go on the bed of a pickup.
You still need the actual supercharger (to convert AC to DC.)

Also, 500kVa genset consume close to 100l/h (25gallons/h) of diesel when running at full load.

And that's only for 4 stalls.

A lot of Semis and large rigid trucks have ~600 hp diesel engines. If I was building a solution for this from a clean sheet, I'd start with one of the large rigid flatbed truck designs, and put your 500 kVa generator on a PTO type connection from the truck's drive engine, then put a large fuel tank and the supercharger electronics on the bed, set up to give two plugs along each side of the truck, one near the front and one near the rear.

Might need supplemental cooling for the engine, too - I'm not sure it's really intended to run at 600 hp for hours on end...

Maybe Tesla can source B100 for the trucks, to lessen the sting of going back to ICE...

 

[Lloyd]

I've got a portable 4G/LTE webcam that operates on solar...I just need a place to mount it! Any ideas?

Anyone know the owner of the yogurt land?

You could mount it on the last stall, or on the cinderblock adjacent that looks down the row of slots and protects the supercharging equipment.

I would ask permission from Tesla first.

 

[sorka]

The downside to this approach is the 480 kW diesel generator that's now creating the power for supercharging - all the drawbacks of an ICE car back (noise, pollution, fossil fuels, etc.)

You're also assuming that there will only be a few locations that get busy on those days, and that Tesla will know which ones in advance. If that's really true, it makes more sense to diversify with secondary locations around those critical ones and manage the flow between them, I'd think.

Not really a downside if it's only needed for 1% of Tesla supercharging. They could use these to hit the worst locations, not all congested locations, but locations where the longest waits do to unusual edge conditions exist.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, 500 kVa generators weight in at 6 tons (12 000 pounds) and are not the kind that can go on the bed of a pickup.
You still need the actual supercharger (to convert AC to DC.)

These generators consume close to 100l/h (25gallons/h) of diesel when running at full load.

And that's only for 4 stalls.

So, yeah, it is certainly possible but not as easy as it sounds.

You mean like these?

Level 3 Roadside Charging from AAA | ShowTimes Clean Fuel Vehicle News

Or this 67KW level 3 truck:

Real Power Develops Mobile Level 3 DC Quick Charger

And then for the really congested edge cases, you send a Tesla employee to valet the cars in and out of the SCs so that once A Tesla can no longer take something more than 67KW due to SOC, you move them on to the mobile version to continue charging. That way you utilize the higher KW SC capacity at a higher efficiency.

This one can charge up to 150KW:

Plug-In Carolina Real Power Mobile Level 3 EV Charging Vehicle Demonstration - YouTube

 

[Lloyd]

Generators burn more fuel than you think!

 

[Saghost]

Hmm. 36 gallons per hour for 500 kW. At 130,500 BTU/Gal (36.4 MJ/l), that's (133 l *36.4 =) 4.8 GJ of thermal energy turned into (500 kWh * 3600 seconds per hour =) 1.8 GJ of electricity - about 37% thermal efficiency.

At 38 kWh/100 miles (EPA rating for an S85 from the wall,) that's (500 kWh/38 kWh *100 miles =) 1,300 miles of Tesla driving for 36 gallons of diesel - 37 miles per gallon

Not amazing, but well above fleet averages for cars this year.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Seems like another business opportunity for an enterprising truck owner.

How much do you think the people in the back of the line would pay to get an L3 charge enough to get to another SC or their destination?

 

[abasile]

I'm not sure why anyone is surprised by this congestion. With peak holiday travel on a popular route, the limitations of an 85 kWh battery, and the limited throughput that even a 12-stall SC site can handle, this was bound to happen with more Model S cars on the road. Anyone buying a long range today EV should be prepared for congestion at peak times. I expect this may one day also be the case, at times, along US-395 from LA to Mammoth and along I-80 from SF to Tahoe. While this reality may constitute a fatal flaw for some, many others will consider it a tradeoff worth making in order to drive a great car, transition away from oil, etc. Personally, as a future Tesla buyer, I'm not concerned as we generally try to avoid traveling at peak times anyway.

As I mentioned elsewhere, whenever all operative SuperCharger stalls are occupied at a given location, I think Tesla should message owners as their cars finish charging, kindly informing them that others are likely waiting in line.

Such scenarios, which again shouldn't be a surprise, will also provide an incentive to purchase or lease larger battery packs as the technology improves. Some may choose to pay extra for a 200 kWh pack just to avoid the need to charge (or swap) in the middle of nowhere. Others may be content with 100 kWh or so, preferring instead to save money at the cost of some time.

Also, while battery swapping may help here, the cost of deploying and administering robust, automated swapping stations may be high. Installing enough swappers to meet peak demand might be prohibitive in cost. Thus, congestion could also become an issue at swappers.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

It's time for Tesla to build a small fleet of mobile super chargers that can be driven to trouble spots based on real time usage and about to be used data. I don't mean the kind that are temporary like the ones Harris has. I mean big trucks that have 4 chargers built in with crazy large generators. This way they can service the few locations that get super busy 3 or 4 times a year without having to add stalls that will be unused 99% of the time.

Not a good PR move for Tesla. As a hypothetical ICE driver I would certainly have a hearty chuckle at Tesla's expense if I saw that setup. It also admits to the world that the world isn't ready for EVs. The cost of just one of these proposed vehicles would probably exceed that of two new Supercharger installation. The Lebec Supercharger is surrounded by vacant parking spaces, not sure why Tesla doesn't just lease more space and add more Superchargers in the existing lot. There is plenty of room.

- - - Updated - - -

It would be nice if they could tell you how many Teslas were at that location that have not *yet* charged since they also have that data. They also have the SOCs of each Tesla charging and not currently charging yet along with how many Teslas are inbound.

Tesla can't even update Trip Planner to work or add waypoints to navigation, what makes you think they can put together a complex Supercharger scheduling app? ROTFL!