Setec CCS to Tesla Adapter

[Earl]

ANY DCFC is better than NO DCFC!

In heavily served routes such as, perhaps LA to 'vegas today, this may be true (only as of this year though).
However, a non-working DCFC, when its your only choice, is worse than No DCFC. With no DCFC, you don't try. With non-working DCFC, you're stuck somewhere, for hours to possibly days charging at level 1 or 2 or else, you're paying huge $$ for a tow truck.

 

[acarney]

Yes, yes they are installing 50kW max DCFC stations. I don't see that as a bad thing, because at this stage, ANY DCFC is better than NO DCFC! 50kW is about hour and half maybe to full charge rather than less than an hour on Tesla V3. That's a whole lot better than L2 which is hours and hours and hours. If every single gas station located along the interstate from here to Vegas (Or insert your 200+ mile destination here) had just one or two 50kW DCFC stations, I'd be a lot happier!

Sometimes I think the $$$ support from the gov't should've went to installing DCFC's rather than into consumers buying electric cars, that would at least help the range anxieties we have now. Sure, it's much worse 10 years ago, but it could be better.

I think it's crazy that someone is spending money on a 50kW charger at this phase in the game. I agree more DCFC are better than less, but again you run into this situation of turning off buyers. If you don't have a DCFC and can't make the route then yes, no one is going to buy an EV that needs to take that route. But I feel almost the same on if a coworker or family member says "Sure, they have a quick charger there now! Just about an hour and you're on your way again!" If you bought an ID 4 Pro you could drive maybe 230 miles (3 hours) before needing to charge. You have less than 2 more hours to drive (120 miles) but you now have to stop and charge for almost 45 minutes to be able to finish your 350 mile trip. We're more than half way through 2021 and we're still talking about 45 minute long stops on a 5 hour road trip? I think many families might be game for driving about 2 to 2.5 hours, stop at a fast food place for 20 minutes to grab a bit and then hit the road again. Either way, these chargers likely have a fairly long life and could be key chargers for at least the next 3 to 5 years. Can you imagine three years from now stopping at a 50kW charger and being "happy" about it?

If they're essentially abandoned in just a handful of years because of newer ones being built, than it was a huge waste of money now to install that rather than a 150kW+. My state averaged over a hundred thousand dollars for each install of one of these 50kW stations with between one and two plugs per site....

And the comment about there being no reason for all the issues with CCS right now... I fully believe that. A big project like this should be tested to no end. The standard should be locked down before rolling out equipment and tested. Then new autos should be tested internally and maybe even externally by EA to be "certified" to work on their network. Any issues that DO show up should be fixed rapidly. There is no reason why EA had to have so many support calls that it accounted for 25% of all their charging sessions... that's just insane.

 

[cwerdna]

And the comment about there being no reason for all the issues with CCS right now... I fully believe that. A big project like this should be tested to no end. The standard should be locked down before rolling out equipment and tested. Then new autos should be tested internally and maybe even externally by EA to be "certified" to work on their network. Any issues that DO show up should be fixed rapidly. There is no reason why EA had to have so many support calls that it accounted for 25% of all their charging sessions... that's just insane.

Again, I think you're conflating a number of issues:
- EA and other network general reliability issues, some of which aren't related to the plug type (can affect CHAdeMO too) like credit card reader, NFC, network or back end problems
- vehicle compatibility problems
- actual station problems that affect a particular station or one of its handles
- user error esp. since the workflow seems more involved and error prone than what's involved w/a CCS vehicle
- actual Setec compatibility problems: This isn't helped by the fact that there are 4 Tesla models floating around each with one of several different software versions for that vehicle and Setec adapters w/one of several firmware versions. And, over time, those vehicles receive newer versions of software from Tesla. This is besides a specific Tesla model (more true for older models) likely having gone thru several hardware revisions over time for any of the hardware involved with DC FCing.

Regarding testing, search Electrify America Talks Charging Network Problems, Has Solutions for lab numerous times.

Automakers do testing of their EVs/PHEVs against charging equipment of various vendors. I obviously can't comment on Ford and VW in this case. As examples w/older vehcles for J1772, the e-Golf from a charging POV seemed buggy on J1772 (per a former Plugshare employee, see my post and actual experience at Is there a term for driver leaving car in charging port for longer than suggested time? - My Nissan Leaf Forum). For J1772, BMW botched the on-board chargers on all of their i3's for the US (their second OBC is aka the KLE): BMW Starts Replacing i3 KLE Onboard Charger To Achieve A 7.4 kW Charging Rate. They had to turn down the charging rate as a band aid until there was a new re-designed part.

Obviously, this Setec adapter hasn't had the benefit of a whole bunch of testing by the automaker (or Setec or the folks in South Korea, esp. in DC FCs deployed in the US) and Electrify America.

Where does that 25% figure come from? I've not needed to call them 25% of the time in order to charge my Bolt. However, sometimes there is a down/broken station when I'm attempting to charge and I call it in, while I charge on another.

 

[srs5694]

Just as a comment on the nominal subject of the thread and update to an earlier post of mine: My Setec adapter arrived today, just a few days too late for my July 4 travels. I did test it at an Electrify America station near me, and it worked fine. I was connected for 24 minutes and added 18kWh, according to TeslaFi, for an average charge rate of 45kW, which is about what I expected. (This is on a Model 3, so I've got the 50kW limit.) I haven't checked to see what firmware revision the adapter is running, but I assume it's the latest 150, since that was released over two months ago. There are EVgo, ChargePoint, and other CCS stations nearby, but I don't think I'll bother testing on them unless/until there's a firmware update that promises to safely unlock greater speed or until I'm preparing for another road trip.

Also and FWIW, the unit feels slightly heavier than the Tesla CHAdeMO adapter, but that's deceptive -- I'm guessing as a result of the fact that the Setec CCS unit is a solid piece, rather than built with a cable. On my scales, the Setec weighs in at 4 pounds, 1 ounce, whereas the Tesla CHAdeMO adapter is 4 pounds, 10 ounces.

 

[Exelion]

With non-working DCFC, you're stuck somewhere, for hours to possibly days charging at level 1 or 2 or else, you're paying huge $$ for a tow truck.

That’s why we need more of them. If the one you’re using doesn’t work, you’ll try the one next to it. Then if that doesn’t work, try the DCFC across the street at the other gas station. Or the one on the opposite corner. Etc, etc. If DCFC’s were as abundant as gas station pumps (or more) there wouldn’t be the problem of being stuck for hours somewhere.

 

[Dave EV]

If you bought an ID 4 Pro you could drive maybe 230 miles (3 hours) before needing to charge. You have less than 2 more hours to drive (120 miles) but you now have to stop and charge for almost 45 minutes to be able to finish your 350 mile trip. We're more than half way through 2021 and we're still talking about 45 minute long stops on a 5 hour road trip?

Uh, I have a Model 3 LR and my last road trip, 300 miles each way, I charged for 36 min on the way out and 23 min in the other direction.

Didn't need to charge for quite as long as I did, but we had to stop for a break anyway. On the way out, a lack of Superchargers towards the end of the route meant 2 shorter stops. On the way back we stopped for lunch anyway.

A perfectly placed V3 in both directionswould have enabled a less than 10 min stop, but otherwise was capped at 70 kW on one stop on the way out and 55 kW on the way back (paired V2s in both capped cases, with one not offering full 70 kW speeds due to poor maintenance - the one V3 charged as fast as the car would allow).

Despite the less than ideal charge rates, the charging stops didn't present any significant inconvenience'.

I'd rather see multiple 50 kW chargers over a single 150 kW. After 10 years of driving EVs I'd rather have plentiful moderate speed chargers than fewer high speed chargers. It only takes one bad experience to slow down EV adoption.

Of course, the faster the chargers, the better!

 

[Earl]

we need more of them.

clearly, this is the long term solution. If executed poorly or with evil intent, however, we may not get to the long term or it could take a lot longer.

 

[Earl]

crazy that someone is spending money on a 50kW charger

The main value for such slow charging would be a sit-down cafe or restaurant or a store where they want you to spend time and money.
i can envision Dennys offering 50 kW charging for free or cheap, close to a Supercharger or EA site.

 

[Tectonic]

The main value for such slow charging would be a sit-down cafe or restaurant or a store where they want you to spend time and money.
i can envision Dennys offering 50 kW charging for free or cheap, close to a Supercharger or EA site.

And more generally, 50 kW chargers are great for opportunity charging, enabling a model of "charging where you stop" rather than "stopping where you charge."

 

[miimura]

Uh, I have a Model 3 LR and my last road trip, 300 miles each way, I charged for 36 min on the way out and 23 min in the other direction.

Didn't need to charge for quite as long as I did, but we had to stop for a break anyway. On the way out, a lack of Superchargers towards the end of the route meant 2 shorter stops. On the way back we stopped for lunch anyway.

A perfectly placed V3 in both directions would have enabled a less than 10 min stop, but otherwise was capped at 70 kW on one stop on the way out and 55 kW on the way back (paired V2s in both capped cases, with one not offering full 70 kW speeds due to poor maintenance - the one V3 charged as fast as the car would allow).

Despite the less than ideal charge rates, the charging stops didn't present any significant inconvenience'.

I'd rather see multiple 50 kW chargers over a single 150 kW. After 10 years of driving EVs I'd rather have plentiful moderate speed chargers than fewer high speed chargers. It only takes one bad experience to slow down EV adoption.

Of course, the faster the chargers, the better!

We may be rapidly approaching the time when "faster chargers" means 250-350kW, "moderate speed" means 100-150kW and a "slow" DC charger means 50kW.

Your desire for multiple 50kW chargers has been realized in some places. However, I don't think the truck stop example below makes much sense in today's environment. Kudos for the big installation, but limiting all to 50kW seems like a fail.
Plugshare - EZ Trip Travel Center, Madera, CA

 

[miimura]

So, the only EA vendor I haven't used yet is Efacec.

It seems that there are very few, if any, Efacec EA installations in California. They are prevalent on the east coast.

 

[mrc3]

I wish my experience would support the assertion that standards are all that is required for good interoperability. When different vendors all develop their own software to a common set of standards.... seldom do those independent software implementations interoperate with each other. Back in the days when IPsec was was still in its first 10 years of existence, there was IPsec "bakeoffs" where the vendors engineers would bring product to a big lab/conference room and work on interoperability for a week at a time. Usually once a year.. It is VERY VERY VERY hard to write a specification so tightly that independent implementations interoperate. The ideal solution in my mind would have been an open source, shared software solution or if not open source, freely available licensed source code reference implementation of both car and charger side that is shared by all vendors. With just one code base, interoperability is much less of an issue.

For the golfers.. think of standards as being the rules of golf the relatively brief little book of rules... maybe 40 pages? The implementations as being the "Decisions on the rules of golf" 600+ page book that applies those rules to very specific situations as being the "software".

While standards are great... a shared code base is pretty much to everybody's advantage for something that is supposed to be shared across multiple vendors.

Mike

 

[acarney]

The main value for such slow charging would be a sit-down cafe or restaurant or a store where they want you to spend time and money.
i can envision Dennys offering 50 kW charging for free or cheap, close to a Supercharger or EA site.

Sure. You’re basically saying replace a level 2 location with a 50kW DCFC. That’s great and I would love to see places we normally would think a level 2 should go instead having a 50kW.

However, these chargers were installed by my state to help fill gaps to allow EVs to be able to drive across the state. In my area one is located at a gas station off the highway and another is located in a city owned lot (city services like 911 and stuff, not even customer facing stuff). It is across the street from a target and Starbucks, but certainly isn’t in a location like you describe.

 

[Earl]

these chargers were installed by my state to help fill gaps to allow EVs to be able to drive across the state.

I agree that this definitely the wrong tool for the job.
I remember many years ago when the State of CA installed a dual-Level 1 Chargepoint charging station along I-80 near Davis at a rest area. There was a similar one in VA along I-64 near Willliamsburg. That was when I gave up on any governments getting EVs on the road. Politicians just don't have sufficient foresight.

 

[cwerdna]

I wish my experience would support the assertion that standards are all that is required for good interoperability. When different vendors all develop their own software to a common set of standards.... seldom do those independent software implementations interoperate with each other. Back in the days when IPsec was was still in its first 10 years of existence, there was IPsec "bakeoffs" where the vendors engineers would bring product to a big lab/conference room and work on interoperability for a week at a time. Usually once a year..

Sounds similar to USB plugfests that I've heard of before (from way back in the early days of USB). Plugtest - Wikipedia points to other examples.

 

[cwerdna]

We may be rapidly approaching the time when "faster chargers" means 250-350kW, "moderate speed" means 100-150kW and a "slow" DC charger means 50kW.

Maybe.... then what do you call the ones that are in between the ranges you mentioned?

FWIW, as discussed years ago, they have the term "intermediate" chargers in Japan. Per CHAdeMO Make/Model Review — Using with a Tesla, that's usually for ones that are <40 kW.

Until one high powered Supercharger site opened up near home, the two closest to home were 72 kW "urban" style Supercharger sites. The EA sites nearby that opened up later are 150 kW.

 

[miimura]

I would call any DC charger below 50kW "obsolete" or "good for e-motorcycles". Of course, practically speaking, there isn't anything deployed in the US between 100A DC and 60A DC. Unfortunately, those 100A chargers are called "50kW" even though there really aren't any EVs that can get more than 40kW out of them. The 60A ones are 24kW and the only recent deployments of note are at Harley dealerships. The CCS West Coast Highway sites that installed those years ago were pretty laughable, but I suppose they were better than L2.

 

[rhuber]

Here’s the answer… yes, the adapter works fine with a Plaid Model S.

 

[rhuber]

Every supercharger around me in L.A. shows “medium wait” for a spot. Meanwhile I’m lonely in this EA location. I’ll continue to enjoy this while it lasts…

 

[srs5694]

Here’s the answer… yes, the adapter works fine with a Plaid Model S.

Your photo showed 120A x 427V. As I understand it, previous versions of Models X and S permitted 200A charging from this adapter, although of course the amperage would drop as the SoC rose. With the Model 3 and Y, the car limits the amperage to 125A. So the question is: What was your SoC when you took the photo? If it was low, then the Plaid may be doing the similar amperage limiting as the 3 and Y, which would limit the charge rate a bit. (I gather that the Plaid pack voltage is a bit higher, so the limit would be a little over 50kW.) OTOH, if your SoC was high, then the amperage may have been low because the car couldn't handle anything faster. In this case, it'll be interesting to know what happens at a lower SoC.