So, What exactly is the value of a Signature Model S?

[bonnie]

I agree Tesla's communications haven't been the best, and I understand why some people are unhappy. But on the positive side:

There are happy stories as well. For example, I locked in my sig at the last possible moment, and my MVPA said October, but I got my car in September. Stories like that just don't get the same amount of discussion.

The car is awesome. As others have noted, the problems fade to the background once you get the car.

When calculating the "Sig premium", remember that it includes discounts for people that owned Roadsters before a certain point. My sig S cost slightly less than the production S my wife would have wanted (even though it would have had fewer options). I think this let them give a small reward to loyal early adopters (and get fully-loaded cars quickly in to the hands of people with a demonstrated ability to show them off) while at the same time charging a time-based versioning premium for latecomers that wanted to jump the queue and get a car fast. Not a perfect plan...but overall, really pretty good.

Not only is Tesla starting a brand-new car company--an almost impossible task by itself--they are building a type of car that nobody else is even trying to build. And they are including dedicated infrastructure. If they fail, I can't see who's going to step in and take over. I'm not saying we should ignore their mistakes; I agree that can be a disservice in the long run as well, and we are spending a lot of money so we should expect a certain amount of service no matter what. I'm just saying that we should be flexible where we can, make sure our comments are aimed at helping them improve, and work together to see how we can help each other as well as Tesla. (Most posters are doing that already; I'm just reinforcing the idea).

Amen. To everything you said.

 

[jerry33]

Not only is Tesla starting a brand-new car company--an almost impossible task by itself--they are building a type of car that nobody else is even trying to build. And they are including dedicated infrastructure. If they fail, I can't see who's going to step in and take over.

If Tesla fails, my opinion is that, there will be no electric cars (at least in North America) for a very long time, if ever. The Leaf has gotten off to a very shaky start and there are severe technical problems (apparently) in hot weather. Toyota only has one because they were forced to. And all the others are mostly unobtainable.

 

[qwk]

If Tesla fails, my opinion is that, there will be no electric cars (at least in North America) for a very long time, if ever. The Leaf has gotten off to a very shaky start and there are severe technical problems (apparently) in hot weather. Toyota only has one because they were forced to. And all the others are mostly unobtainable.

Very Sad, but VERY True. If Tesla fails, expect Roadster and Model S prices to instantly double overnight.

 

[AnOutsider]

I totally agree. Point out where things can be improved and make sure Tesla is aware so they can improve.

Pretty sure that's exactly what this thread is aiming to accomplish.

 

[Arnold Panz]

Not only is Tesla starting a brand-new car company--an almost impossible task by itself--they are building a type of car that nobody else is even trying to build. And they are including dedicated infrastructure. If they fail, I can't see who's going to step in and take over. I'm not saying we should ignore their mistakes; I agree that can be a disservice in the long run as well, and we are spending a lot of money so we should expect a certain amount of service no matter what. I'm just saying that we should be flexible where we can, make sure our comments are aimed at helping them improve, and work together to see how we can help each other as well as Tesla. (Most posters are doing that already; I'm just reinforcing the idea).

Completely agree, Chad. And I always try to offer constructive criticism/advice in my posts (and my discussions with Tesla). It's very hard to get everything right, and Tesla's getting a lot more right than not overall. But I think we'd be remiss to not point out where they're falling short -- if our criticisms bring some change for the better with the X and GenIII, then I will feel really good about having opined so strongly about some of these issues.

Tesla's long-term success is absolutely crucial -- any criticism is intended to help them succeed in the short and long term. My biggest frustration is seeing them make mistakes and as they're happening not being able to do anything about it!

 

[dsm363]

Pretty sure that's exactly what this thread is aiming to accomplish.

And I think it's doing that. Tesla gets lots of feedback from us and hopefully works to implement what they can.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

Given that Elon Musk personally inspected nearly every single car of the first 1200 or so, and they are called "Signatures" after all, I'm shocked that no one at the factory thought to hand him a paint pen to sign the inside of the drivers door frame or some other spot as he inspected them. Can you image the value of the first Model T's having been signed by Henry Ford? I think it would more than eclipse the cost premium of a Sig.

It's not too late to catch the remaining Sigs at the factory. And for the Signatures that are already out there, Tesla could hold a "thank you" party with Elon visiting stores and inviting Signature owners to drop by and get their car signed. It would be a great opportunity for Elon to get some real world feedback from the first drivers, too.

I feel for you Signatures, and definitely thank you for your pioneering spirit and helping bootstrap Tesla. Here's hoping there's still some surprise out there for you.

 

[dsm363]

Given that Elon Musk personally inspected nearly every single car of the first 1200 or so, and they are called "Signatures" after all, I'm shocked that no one at the factory thought to hand him a paint pen to sign the inside of the drivers door frame or some other spot as he inspected them. Can you image the value of the first Model T's having been signed by Henry Ford? I think it would more than eclipse the cost premium of a Sig.

It's not too late to catch the remaining Sigs at the factory. And for the Signatures that are already out there, Tesla could hold a "thank you" party with Elon visiting stores and inviting Signature owners to drop by and get their car signed. It would be a great opportunity for Elon to get some real world feedback from the first drivers, too.

I feel for you Signatures, and definitely thank you for your pioneering spirit and helping bootstrap Tesla. Here's hoping there's still some surprise out there for you.

I asked the rep if he could sign that box the keys were supposed to be delivered in (they came in a plastic bag instead) since the box would be more portable and he could sign a bunch in his office but that didn't happen.

 

[stevezzzz]

They're all too busy driving their cars . (And I'm not being flippant - I have two friends that have received their Model S and all I hear from them is how much they love the car. That's ALL I hear from them.)

Thought I'd weigh in here as a Friend of Bonnie. Yes, I've got a Sig S in my garage and yes, I'm a happy camper. I put off reading this thread until today and I'm glad I did: so much angst! I'm not arguing the main points: the Signature value proposition is pretty iffy for those who didn't qualify for the Roadster Early Adopter discount and pretty clear for those who did. I put down my $5K S deposit at the time I bought my Roadster, in 2009 (because as much as I enjoyed my Roadster---19,000 miles worth of trouble-free fun---the S is the car I wanted from the first) and upgraded to a Sig in early 2012. Sig #187 was delivered to my home and put in my garage while I was out of town; the delivery specialist met me when I got back, on a Sunday evening, to handle the paperwork and do a walk through.

That's a pretty special level of customer service, and it's consistent with my experience over the nearly three years I've been a Tesla owner. As for the S itself, well: it's a pretty special automobile and, btw, it's also gorgeous. It's super quiet, comfortable, roomy and a kick-ass performer...and I didn't even get the Performance model. It makes me smile every time I take it out for a spin.

So take heart, Arnold, et al: I expect you'll find your ownership experience to be a lot more satisfactory than the pre-delivery woes. Could Tesla have done better by its Signature buyers? Of course. Will they be able to recoup the loss of good will and ambassadorship this thread implies? Remains to be seen. Meanwhile, the S is a car to love, and I'm happy to have invested my dollars to play a small part in helping launch a new company with a big vision, a company that all we early adopters so dearly want to see succeed.

 

[bonnie]

And having worked on engineering teams with Steve for years, I can attest to his high standards. And any stories he tells about me are not true.

 

[Tommy]

Thought I'd weigh in here as a Friend of Bonnie. Yes, I've got a Sig S in my garage and yes, I'm a happy camper. I put off reading this thread until today and I'm glad I did: so much angst! I'm not arguing the main points: the Signature value proposition is pretty iffy for those who didn't qualify for the Roadster Early Adopter discount and pretty clear for those who did. I put down my $5K S deposit at the time I bought my Roadster, in 2009 (because as much as I enjoyed my Roadster---19,000 miles worth of trouble-free fun---the S is the car I wanted from the first) and upgraded to a Sig in early 2012. Sig #187 was delivered to my home and put in my garage while I was out of town; the delivery specialist met me when I got back, on a Sunday evening, to handle the paperwork and do a walk through.

That's a pretty special level of customer service, and it's consistent with my experience over the nearly three years I've been a Tesla owner. As for the S itself, well: it's a pretty special automobile and, btw, it's also gorgeous. It's super quiet, comfortable, roomy and a kick-ass performer...and I didn't even get the Performance model. It makes me smile every time I take it out for a spin.

So take heart, Arnold, et al: I expect you'll find your ownership experience to be a lot more satisfactory than the pre-delivery woes. Could Tesla have done better by its Signature buyers? Of course. Will they be able to recoup the loss of good will and ambassadorship this thread implies? Remains to be seen. Meanwhile, the S is a car to love, and I'm happy to have invested my dollars to play a small part in helping launch a new company with a big vision, a company that all we early adopters so dearly want to see succeed.

Well chosen words to close out a thread that has, imo, debated, dissected and discussed all viewpoints regarding the value of the S Signature.

 

[Arnold Panz]

So take heart, Arnold, et al: I expect you'll find your ownership experience to be a lot more satisfactory than the pre-delivery woes. Could Tesla have done better by its Signature buyers? Of course. Will they be able to recoup the loss of good will and ambassadorship this thread implies? Remains to be seen. Meanwhile, the S is a car to love, and I'm happy to have invested my dollars to play a small part in helping launch a new company with a big vision, a company that all we early adopters so dearly want to see succeed.

Steve, thanks for your thoughts on this. It's a good perspective, and one I sometimes need to remind myself of because I get wrapped up in my current experience with Tesla instead of focusing on getting this amazing car that I've coveted since 2009. I've never really doubted how much I'm going to love the car -- otherwise I would have bowed out of my reservation long ago.

My disappointment is partially with Tesla and their communications the last few months (apparently acknowledged by GeorgeB on TMC a few minutes ago, subject to an e-mail later today), but mostly with myself for keeping my Sig reservation after they announced the pricing. An expensive lesson learned, for sure, but hopefully if Tesla is successful I will feel like I contributed my extra bit to its success!

 

[brianman]

Sig owners take heart!
Top 10 New Car Future Classics - WOT on Motor Trend

I'm kind of surprised MT didn't get this right.
There aren't 1000 Signature vehicles. There are 2500. There theoretically were 1000 U.S. Signature, but as noted in prior threads it's likely only accurate to say "1200 in North America" rather than "1000 in the U.S."

But that isn't my quibble.

Model S Signature Performance is being built in a limited run of just 1000 examples.

While this might be correct on a worldwide scale (out of the 2500), we won't know until/unless Tesla releases the statistics on how many Sig owners opted for Performance.

In short, MT muddied it all up.

- - - Updated - - -

I've held off on this thread to avoid increasing personal frustration but I'll just toss this out there for consideration.

Signature difference (roughly):

1. specific flavor of Red exterior (option)
2. white interior (option)
3. early delivery (for those that didn't get victimized by batching drama)
4. block from picking some exterior options
5. block from picking gray interior
6. $35k additional reservation cost
7. required to pay for wheel upgrade
8. sig premium on final price

IMO, 6 should have covered 1,2,3.
8 has offered Tesla value, but not the customer
4,5,7 rubbed salt into the wound

 

[Arnold Panz]

[*]sig premium on final price

I thought you considered this a donation to Tesla!

 

[brianman]

I thought you considered this a donation to Tesla!

I do. It's still a premium.

 

[Brian H]

And having worked on engineering teams with Steve for years, I can attest to his high standards. And any stories he tells about me are not true.

Even or especially the good ones?
:tongue:


:biggrin:

 

[spatterso911]

Well, Yahoo Autos now recognizes Tesla Model S Signature Performance as a future classic car...

Tesla Model S Signature Performance is a classic

Granted, they were wrong in assuming ALL sigs are P85 models...

 

[bonnie]

If you're going to quote people on the forum in an article 2012 Tesla Model S Signature Series: Is It Worth The Premium?, please get people's names correct (and perhaps ask if they mind being quoted). "Arnold Panz" is a screen name, not the reservation holder.

 

[AnOutsider]

lazy reporting as usual. Though, if they've gotten wind of it, I'd assume Tesla definitely has and should be getting their arses in gear. It's entirely plausible though, that they feel they have given us value. If that's the case, it's not what I was sold on and would happily drop my X reservation. Heck, if someone wanted to pay a premium for my car, I could sell it and get back in line for a more refined S in the configuration I actually WANT and at a lower cost. Value indeed.

 

[Arnold Panz]

lazy reporting as usual. Though, if they've gotten wind of it, I'd assume Tesla definitely has and should be getting their arses in gear. It's entirely plausible though, that they feel they have given us value. If that's the case, it's not what I was sold on and would happily drop my X reservation. Heck, if someone wanted to pay a premium for my car, I could sell it and get back in line for a more refined S in the configuration I actually WANT and at a lower cost. Value indeed.

You and me both! But at this point, I think for Tesla it's water under the bridge. If they could go back in time and do things differently I'm pretty sure they would, but at this point all they can try to do is make things better going forward. I'm pretty confident that X Sigs will have a more enjoyable experience during the ramp up as they build their cars than we did, but that's the price we pay (literally) for being first in line.